RW Forum Six – Sub 2.50 Kier with Parkrunfan

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26/03/2013 at 18:30

How did you get on Keir ?

15M and 5M double for me today, the 15 was 1 at 8:02, 10 av 6:36 (even paced too) and 4 easy in to work. I did 10 av 6:15 this time last year but it smoked me and it was really hard, todays was a steady effort. I thought it wise to ration the effort this time, take away the layers and work luggage and it equates to faster than 6:36. Last time I wasted matches seeing how fast I could run. My aim is to keep the right side of 3M every 20min (6:40 pace) but actual pace will just take care of itself on the day.

27/03/2013 at 10:29

Rubbish. Another good training session missed. Ill with the same bug my daughter and wife have. I was up from 2am and although I made it into work, I had to leave halfway through the day to go home to bed. Slept better last night and stomach feels a bit better, but still not great. At work, but no fit state to run. Fingers crossed I will be ok to have a go at the 10m on Friday.

Nice session from you TR. A very sensible approach to saving those matches. I like the 3m in 20mins. Makes it easier to calculate pace and progress when your tired mentally.

27/03/2013 at 12:02

Keir - More gremlins are the last thing you need, frustrating or what!


To answer your question about the last 4 weeks, the general principle is to:

a) Lower the volumes

b) Keep the intensity

That is why the ideal is to get a 26 miler in at the start of this period to gain a good last dose of aerobic development before then gradually letting everything in the legs regain full strength.

The first 2 weeks of this last 4 week block dont need to be too cautious in that a hard 10 miler, or even a hard HM, may well be appropriate  but only on the basis that nothing is strained. The emphasis should be on feeling smooth at speeds a bit quicker than MP to emphasise how effortless the early miles of the marathon are going to feel.

Mileage might drop by 10-15 mpw during this period, so not dramatic but it should start to make the legs feel a bit less achey and a bit stronger.

Then, the last 2 weeks are when the mileage can really drop with ideally the following:

Penultimate week:

1. 2 x 3-4 miles @ about MP

2. A full effort 5K

3. Longest run of 10-12 miles

Last week:

1. 4-6 miles continuous @ about MP (prob Tues)

2. Longest run of about 6 miles

3. Prob 3 rest days

4. Saturday run - relaxed, ie 8 min+, 5K or similar.


Also, in the last 2 weeks:
On the nutrition front I will be looking to do a carb depletion phase in each of the last 2 weeks, ie Mon-Weds, and then eating normally for the rest of the week but without the widely practised bloated carb loading in the last couple of days.

And on that note, as we have just entered the last 4 weeks it was good to get a 26 miler in last night despite the fact that there were no other runners out there at all due to the snow. It was actually very pleasant.

27/03/2013 at 17:51

bloody hell Keir, couldnt you coincide the illness with the injury ?

29/03/2013 at 20:28

I'll try next time TR!

Impressive 26m in the snow PRF. How deep was it out there? Did you run in your normal training shoes? Thanks for the taper advice. I have learnt a lot this campaign from your and others comments. A pity I havent been in a position to apply it all this time, but it has all been noted and stored away for the future. 

I've avoided posting the past few days as it just feels as if I am moaning and wingeing all the time. But dizzy spells and sickness knocked me for six Weds eve and after sleeping for 12 hours, I helped get the kids ready for school, then had another 3 hours kip and it would have been more had the postman not hammered on the front door. Although getting better, I wanted to run today, but sense prevailed. No point as I would either have run badly and depressed myself or more likely would have made myself ill. Still not totally right now. Needless to say, all VLM bets are now off. Fed up with all this. On the positive side, I am only eating about 1/2 of what I normally would, so weight is being lost or at the worst maintained. 

31/03/2013 at 20:52

21m unfuelled again today. Just like last Sunday but htis time by myself so faster. Felt springy and pleased to get out there. Happily ticking off the miles at 7.20m/m and at 10m felt like I could do this all day. At 12m I had planned to take a gel ready for 5 faster miles, but it had dropped from my pocket on route.

At 14m sped up to 6.30m/m to see what it felt like, but soon dropped to 6.50s and only then for 1m before stopping. Bit of a rest them tried a more conservative 7.00m/m, but less than 1m at this pace this time. Sudden lightheaded and shaky leg feeling and I realised on the verge of bonking. The next 5m were a very slow jog walk home, semi hallucinating and dreaming of a can of coke. I just kept telling myself that this is good for fat burning! Couldn't form words when I got home, but a couple of bowls of cornflakes with sugar helped.  I haven't been in that sort of state whilst running before and I guess it s due to reduced calories whilst ill this past week. On the positives, my hip niggle I could feel when I focused on it, but wasn't an issue at all. 

Will run easy tomorrow, but if I feel good I'll will try the 16m with some PMP (maybe 6.50s) as you recommended for last Tuesday PRF

31/03/2013 at 22:00

Doesn't sound like an enjoyable finish Keir.  Make sure that you get some decent carbs in you before attempting the next tough session.  Seems like your illness took more out of you than you realised.

31/03/2013 at 22:02
Hi keir, you've certainly had a frustrating time just lately with injuries and illness and am not surprised today was a tough one if you haven't been eating.
Give yourself a break and ease back into it gently as I don't think there is any point in trying 16 with MP after todays tough run as you'll end up grinding yourself back down.
01/04/2013 at 18:52

Bloody hell Keir, another long long run then, unfuelled means during the run, you have to fuel the night before. Must have been the illness, but the time on feet will come in handy.

I'm with moof too, last thing you need now is some hard running to knock your body back a a bit again. Stick with looking for run frequency from now on in, you can always do a few strides to turn your legs over a bit.

01/04/2013 at 20:38

ok. I guess at this stage there is no point hammering it. I am not going to suddenly turn things round overnight and if anything risk burning matches which I can no longer spare.


03/04/2013 at 21:36

Last few days have been 5m, 7m, 12m. Having to drag myself out a bit though. All a bit of a chore at the moment. 

04/04/2013 at 09:23

You need a bit of a mojo boost, how are you going to do that? VLM is a little over 2 weeks away and I assume you will take a shortish taper so you most likely need to find a nice race with a soft PB (or no PB at all) and smash it.

04/04/2013 at 11:50

Keir - Reading between the lines, you are actually not in too bad a shape for a decent crack at a marathon.

However, it really is a case of thinking in terms of maintenance rather than training now. You probably have a big effort in you, but not several due to the various downtimes, so this is definitely where the saving matches comes in.

I wouldnt be concerned about the paces being a struggle on the 21 miler because you were clearly running on empty. Bear in mind that the unfuelled LSRs are done at much slower paces, ie 90-120s/mile slower.

I know what PMJ is saying about a mojo boost but I tend to think that given the circumstances you will be better seved by lining up at VLM with a mind full of doubts, that way you are far more likely to employ loads of caution and increase your chances of a good run. A confidence booster in the meantime might actually push you the other way.

Have been a little bit busy over this last week myself but will have daily input over these last 17 days to VLM.

04/04/2013 at 14:18

Keir, sorry to read about all your woes. I think you need a bit of mental motivation. I've just listen to these videos aimed at the Belfast Marathon and found a few ideas that might help.


05/04/2013 at 20:58

Thanks for the video BB. I'll check that out later.

I know what you are saying PMJ. A decent confidence booster would be nice. But I did have 3 races planned for this campaign where I hoped to pb;  a 10k where I stopped midrace and a HM and 10m both of which were DNS. I think a race so late would either burn matches, as PRF says, or more likely, back fire as I do worse than I hoped.

I take your point as getting too much confidence from a good performance PRF. Doubts are pretty big at the moment, but still hoping I can get close to sub 3. I'll work on keeping things steady over the next 2 weeks without any panicky last minute speed work.

I'm starting to think about the future. I do believe that the best marathons are run on the back of previous campaigns. I'm thinking of maybe picking up a number for Abingdon, as I have had 2 good races there before. But I really need to decide whether I can get my head round another campaign.


05/04/2013 at 21:28

Chin up Keir, you should still be more than fit enough to bag a sub3. Keep the run frequency high and put in some strides or 30sec to 1min cruise sections to get your legs turning over, but dont beast yourself at all. You might be wise to simply race some shorter distances inc some 1/2s through to the Autmn and then simply do 5 or 6 ~20M long runs and then do Abo, it might work better taking the emphasis off the marathon. You can keep a midweek 10-12 through the summer and a 15 or 16M long run and then just top up the long runs at the very end before Abo. That way the campaign might become part of your life instead of taking over your life. My VLM training is simply some commutes and a long run, its part of my life and doesnt take much mental energy.

Usual calf issue at this end means no running since last Saturday, although I did a 5M test run today and should be able to build it up again after the weekend. So if you can run ~2:55 pace then I'll give you a tow in 2 weeks.

Edited: 05/04/2013 at 21:29
07/04/2013 at 21:44

Cheers TR. I think doing something different over summer would be good. I will probably maintain the endurance with some 20m races and LDWA marathons, but at a training rather than racing pace. A few 5k and 10ks are on the cards as well and then I'll probably look at a marathon specific magic8 through Aug and Sept and see how that goes. But I still need to consider how I am going to manage sept work commitments and Oct uni deadlines. I hope your calf test went ok and you are back running again.

I did 5m Thurs, 7m Fri, rest Sat and 14m today. The past few days I've picked up another cold, - sore throat and blocked nose. Normally I would be stressed and worried how this would affect the race, but so much as gone wrong this campaign it just seems par for the course!

08/04/2013 at 18:17

Keir - I did 5M Friday and survived ok, so did 15M today, bit of a shock after only 1 run in 8 days, but needs must. Keep the frequency up, but dont beast yourself now.

08/04/2013 at 20:30
Keir. Sorry to hear it's been a tough few weeks. Sounds like it's still on for a good day though if you play it canny. In Abingdon 2 years ago I lost at least 4 of the 16 week build up and still managed to only end up 40secs over 3 hours so I think you're still definitely in the game
Had my first ever DNF in a race yesterday in a 10k when hamstring refused to behave - all part of the fun.....
09/04/2013 at 09:59

Keir - Looking beyond VLM and thinking about aims for afterwards is probably the best way to make VLM as relaxed as possible, so good approach.


Just a mere 12 days to go now so training time over now and just a case of letting what is in the bank come to the surface. I know that I'm ready for a bit of a rest! Week 12 of 14.

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