RW Forum Six – Sub 2.50 Kier with Parkrunfan

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28/12/2012 at 08:48
YD - being a Bradford City fan the fact that we are going to be reasonably close to elland road was one for the list of 'cons'

Keir it's not going for a leak that tends to be the problem but I have historically had a problem with nearly shitting myself on a extended MP run. That problem has been solved by switching to jam on white bread rather than a bowl of cereal.

KR - I am doing brass monkey in about three weeks but I'm not very fit so haven't decided how to run it yet. I'm actually a bit of a softie and as per TR and BR don't really like to race more than 10miles in a marathon build up as I feel they do irrecoverable damage if you smash it out of the park. I think a slightly harder than MP effort is fine but all out half? Not for me - I've got training to do.

I do the vast majority of my training on an empty stomach, even LT runs, intervals and long runs but I am usually up and out the door by 5:10. I soon get hungry if I don't go right away though so need something before a race.
Cheerful Dave    pirate
28/12/2012 at 09:39
parkrunfan wrote (see)

But it isnt really any different to racing a morning half marathon after not eating anything for maybe 16 hours (eg a 10am start after a 6pm evening meal the night before) and I wouldnt dream of eating before a morning race.

Any particular reason for that (not eating before a 10am race)?

Regardless of that, I would have thought that not eating during the day is a whole lot different to not eating at night, assuming that you're spending the day moderatly active (i.e. awake).  Still, I guess if you did it for long enough you'd get used to it.

28/12/2012 at 15:54

I think Race Jase was right and we have all run out things to say! Sorry about your football club by the way

Come on then prf, the soap has run out, what’s the plan for the 4 weeks leading up to M day?  

I have been faffing with my plan again, I think I should change my forum name to the tinker man. This training plan of mine has had more versions than I can count. Its basically the same set of sessions, listed in a different way on the spreadsheet. Work is slow today..............

28/12/2012 at 17:17
Good to see everyone getting into some level detail about their bladder and bowel idiosyncrasies! Always vaguely amusing

Don't think I could get through a whole day without eating even if I did eat all daddy, mummy and baby bear's porridge first thing. Is there convincing evidence that really stimulates adaptations or more of a theory prf??

Looks like it's time to tuck that expensive bike away in moth balls for a few months Keir....
28/12/2012 at 17:45
Cheerful Dave wrote (see)

Regardless of that, I would have thought that not eating during the day is a whole lot different to not eating at night, assuming that you're spending the day moderatly active (i.e. awake).  Still, I guess if you did it for long enough you'd get used to it.

I would think that being a primary school teacher would burn a lot of glycogen in the day and Keir would run the risk of bombing even before the run / getting crotchety with his class etc.  Still, it would be an interesting experiment...

RJ - the fastest marathon runner in Yorkshire ran a 2:28 last year, so this time next year it could be you.  Mind you, we were too preoccupied in making sure that GB had a modern era record haul of Olympic gold medals!

28/12/2012 at 17:57

Keir - I honestly dont think I have ever come across the phrase 'anally retentive primary school coloured spreadsheet' before. It was worth starting the thread just for that.

Nice to see a good discussion going on around the fat adaptation idea. To be honest, I'm pleasantly surprised at the level of open mindedness on exploring that one as usually the word 'bonkers' would be liberally utilised.

Fraser - There is no scientific evidence at all. All I would say though is that I had almost convinced myself that falling apart in the last 10K was an inevitability, for me at least, until I decided to apply some logic to the scenario.

I have now had two marathons on the bounce where I have felt able to get stuck into the last 10K rather than hang on and I put the credit down to the low glycogen runs and the double glycogen depletion technique (thats one for later!).

Just off for a run so will post later....


Edited: 28/12/2012 at 17:57
28/12/2012 at 18:28
Keir this double depletion is only just the start. Just you wait, next he will tell you to give a pint of blood before each long run!
Cheerful Dave    pirate
28/12/2012 at 18:34

As long as he doesn't suggest oxygenating it and putting it back for race day...

28/12/2012 at 20:03

KR - I ran 5 progressive runs, increasing from 7 miles up to 10 miles alternating with 5 sessions with chunks of Easy/HMP/MP over a 10 week period.  I did these instead of MLR.  I knew that I suffer with injuries if I aim for higher mileage so tried to keep to around 50mpw as an average.

I also agree with the theory of running without food as never have "anything extra" the night before an evening long run and then nothing before heading out.  I also restrict fluids and never drink anything apart from on my final long runs where I run 8-12 miles of MP and "test" gels.  I find that if you can do your long runs on empty it helps come race day.  I am not sure I could go all day without eating before an evening run though, but more from a mental perspective than physical.

Good to see that the smut has started to show it's head Keir!!

28/12/2012 at 20:05

One thing at a time, YD, one thing at a time.....

Btw It is a bit of a concern that we havent even got to New Year yet and you cant wait to get stuck into the taper.....


As a further comment on the low glycogen runs, from anecdotal evidence I would suggest that the lighter you are are the more female you are the less you need to be concerned about such things, which might explain the reactions of Speedy and Hilly.

For us less skinny males we can do two things:

a) Lose some weight
b) Drink plenty tap water as I believe it is swimming in Oestrogen these days. You may end up with a squeaky voice, sob uncontrollably at sad animal stories and take an unhealthy interest in Mills and Boon romances but, hey, if it improves your marathon time........



Edited: 28/12/2012 at 20:12
28/12/2012 at 20:25
Y D wrote (see)
Keir this double depletion is only just the start. Just you wait, next he will tell you to give a pint of blood before each long run!


28/12/2012 at 20:41
PRF. I believe it to be bonkers.
28/12/2012 at 20:43
That said, most benefit is gained from belief, so if you feel so inclined you should take my negative view to reinforce the effect. And has been pointed out, it will save a few slices of bread that day that can be fed to the ducks.
28/12/2012 at 20:49

Sorry for getting confused regarding your lack of bodily function control RJ. I obviously don't know my arse from my, um, male genetal area! Interesting what you said about jam and bread though. I always have cereal in the mornings, usually after the run unless I am running further than 16m and cheerios or cornflakes is usually the prefered choice. Porridge also good, but takes an extra minute or two to prepare. However I do occassionally suffer from 'gastric issues' so might experiment with the jammy sandwich first thing instead. - But not at 5.10am! 

Y 'tinkerman' D - I know what you mean. Despite having every days session written down, I continually tinker and improve the plan. However I have learnt that keeping endless variations is too confusing. I just keep the latest variation and one from about 2 weeks earlier. 

You leave your mothballs out of this Fraser! Perhaps CD needs to chip in with some detail on which bike session improve running performance. A local guy (sub 20min 10m TT rider switched to runner (34.30ish 10k) told me he kept getting injuries when running short intervals, but 30mins in a low gear spinning at 120rpm is just as effective at developing leg speed. I do actually have this down on my plan for Mondays as a recovery session after a LSR and surprised that PRF hasn't questioned it (rapped my knuckles) yet!

Don't worry CD. I wouldn't want to risk mixing it up with the bags already in my frdge from my father / dog / mother-in-law / unborn twin brother. 

The running depleted is quite controversial. I understand why people would do it if they have a particular issue over a few marathons and have identifed it as a weakness. However I do also think that it means that recovery takes longer and this can affect immunity to infections and recovery for later sessions. Personally I would value the latter for consistency over running totally unfueled on a frequent basis. 

That said, for my marathons I have carbo-loaded (without the Aussie depletion) and for the last Abingdon I deliberately avoided any high glycemic carbs on the morning (just porridge with no sweatener and coffee). Before the race, I downed a red bull shot 30mins beforehand and rather than 500ml of energy drink on the line as previous marathons I just had water. I then stuck to gels for the first 6 miles when I started taking gels and SIS go. I believe that this, along with a slow (slightly below ave pace) start helped to keep me burning fat over the first few miles. As I understand it, as soon as: 1. your effort spikes or 2. you ingest some high glycemic carbs - your carb burning system kicks in and it takes a long time of low effort to return to fat burning. 


Only ended up with an easy 5m run home (which was on the plan but I had thought of doing further). Dark, rainy and heavy legs. Really wasn't much fun until The Pixies came on the ipod, followed by some early Leftfield and I got home elated and wanting to go back out for more of the same. 


28/12/2012 at 21:34
Keir - I believe the term you're after is urethral meatus. Or trouser snake's mouth

Glad my holding you up for the first 3 miles at Abo helped a bit

Your iPod sounds a bit trendy. Do you have any material by Dave,Dee,Dozy,Mick and Titch ??
28/12/2012 at 22:28

Talking Heads is about as far back as I go on the current playlist Fraser. Down wid da kidz me. 

You're right though, one of my areas for improvement this time round is not to get too involved chatting with someone for the first few miles who keeps telling me to slow down! 

28/12/2012 at 22:48
parkrunfan wrote (see)

Speedy - It just isnt a problem and I cant imagine that I'm that unusual, although I think my bowl of muesli is probably 1000+ cals rather tha 300ish

But it isnt really any different to racing a morning half marathon after not eating anything for maybe 16 hours (eg a 10am start after a 6pm evening meal the night before) and I wouldnt dream of eating before a morning race.

Whereas I wouldn't dream of racing or running a hard session in the morning without a bowl of porridge inside me! In fact, thus far I haven't even managed short easy runs unfuelled. I tried it a couple of times and my form was dreadful and I felt awful. I do plan to try it again when I change gyms in February, but may end up just getting up even earlier to eat first. 

29/12/2012 at 09:47

Right, I have put PRFs plans into my crucial 8 week schedule and even colour coded them  The main differences are:

  1. Removal of 19M w/10M @PMP and 21M w/14M @ PMP -  replaced with 22m w/fast finish
  2. Removal of Olypmic duathlon – 10k, 25m TT, 5k – replaced with a 20m race to be run as controlled and progressive
  3. Removal of MLR w/ a few miles @ MP – replaced with Progressive 10m
  4. Removal of recovery runs with strides and replaced with a run with 5k @ 10k pace
  5. No change to MLRs (nice to see I had something right) 

Still not feeling quite right. Sore throat and the glands are up, so I will run 12m easy today and not include the planned  70mins @ 80%.

seren nos    pirate
29/12/2012 at 09:56

right now that you pair are sorted.can you give us a break down of next weeks planned schedule............not that I am going to follow it as you are super duper fast for me but i am interested in seeing whats planned ..

 Thank you and how todays run is ok

29/12/2012 at 10:40

Next week Seren? We haven't looked at that yet. We've only just sorted out Feburary and March! 

But here is what I have planned although sessions might be moved around different days (and all will be following a hearty breakfast ):

Sunday - 20m LSR - lumpy and steady - around 8m/m

Monday - 5m easy

Tuesday - hang over run - 15m w/ 80min @ 80% max HR (just under Marathon effort)

Wednesday - 45m ride (on the bike)

Thursday - 5m recovery

Friday - 18m LSR

Satuday - 6m w/ 6x100m strides

Sunday - 10m hilly run / 45m ride


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