RW Forum Six – Sub 2.50 Kier with Parkrunfan

YD - A 4 week taper? Wash your mouth out...

Yes, this year's Town Moor marathon winner has been in touch, so many thanks for that. Deal done.

Being the controlled restrained type RJ usually runs HMs in the campaign to MP KR. However I seem to remember he likes making them tougher by downing 3 pints of liquid on the startline and trying not to piss himself over the route. 

Valid question YD. A 8 week build finishing in a Marathon 4 weeks out isn't going to result in much training over the following week, then it is taper time. But I won't question PRF on that one until he has run out of soap. 

I can happily run 16m in the morning on an empty stomach after a normal evening meal Speedy, so I understand what PRF is saying. I would have thought it would be harder in the evening as we burn more calories throughout the day. However if it saves me the hassle of making sandwiches the nightr before, I'm up for it!

PRF - I will plug in your 5 sessions into my anally retentitive, primary school coloured spreadsheet and see how that changes things. I am starting to suspect that I might have to give up my title of club duathlon champion and rather than a couple of duathlons, find a 20miler (or at least a HM and do a long warm up) and maybe a HM instead. To be honest, this is a bit of a relief. I do have a habit of trying to do too much and thereby losing focus. One of the things I was hoping to get from this process was someone to keep me on the path.

I have a morning of inserting batteries into Xmas presents whilst my wife is in bed (no, I haven't treated her to one of those!), followed by family swimming after lunch and a run home. I'm a bit worried that the current state of Yule log moisture in this house might have the same effect on the water that coco-pops have on milk in the bowl. 

Very intersting discussion, but again I think it would be tough to run a session in the evening just off breakfast.  Surely there's an easier way to get the same adaptation?

parkrunfan wrote (see)

But it isnt really any different to racing a morning half marathon after not eating anything for maybe 16 hours (eg a 10am start after a 6pm evening meal the night before) and I wouldnt dream of eating before a morning race.

Any particular reason for that (not eating before a 10am race)?

Regardless of that, I would have thought that not eating during the day is a whole lot different to not eating at night, assuming that you're spending the day moderatly active (i.e. awake).  Still, I guess if you did it for long enough you'd get used to it.

I think Race Jase was right and we have all run out things to say! Sorry about your football club by the way

Come on then prf, the soap has run out, what’s the plan for the 4 weeks leading up to M day?  

I have been faffing with my plan again, I think I should change my forum name to the tinker man. This training plan of mine has had more versions than I can count. Its basically the same set of sessions, listed in a different way on the spreadsheet. Work is slow today..............

Cheerful Dave wrote (see)

Regardless of that, I would have thought that not eating during the day is a whole lot different to not eating at night, assuming that you're spending the day moderatly active (i.e. awake).  Still, I guess if you did it for long enough you'd get used to it.

I would think that being a primary school teacher would burn a lot of glycogen in the day and Keir would run the risk of bombing even before the run / getting crotchety with his class etc.  Still, it would be an interesting experiment...

RJ - the fastest marathon runner in Yorkshire ran a 2:28 last year, so this time next year it could be you.  Mind you, we were too preoccupied in making sure that GB had a modern era record haul of Olympic gold medals!

Keir - I honestly dont think I have ever come across the phrase 'anally retentive primary school coloured spreadsheet' before. It was worth starting the thread just for that.

Nice to see a good discussion going on around the fat adaptation idea. To be honest, I'm pleasantly surprised at the level of open mindedness on exploring that one as usually the word 'bonkers' would be liberally utilised.

Fraser - There is no scientific evidence at all. All I would say though is that I had almost convinced myself that falling apart in the last 10K was an inevitability, for me at least, until I decided to apply some logic to the scenario.

I have now had two marathons on the bounce where I have felt able to get stuck into the last 10K rather than hang on and I put the credit down to the low glycogen runs and the double glycogen depletion technique (thats one for later!).

Just off for a run so will post later....

As long as he doesn't suggest oxygenating it and putting it back for race day...

KR - I ran 5 progressive runs, increasing from 7 miles up to 10 miles alternating with 5 sessions with chunks of Easy/HMP/MP over a 10 week period.  I did these instead of MLR.  I knew that I suffer with injuries if I aim for higher mileage so tried to keep to around 50mpw as an average.

I also agree with the theory of running without food as never have "anything extra" the night before an evening long run and then nothing before heading out.  I also restrict fluids and never drink anything apart from on my final long runs where I run 8-12 miles of MP and "test" gels.  I find that if you can do your long runs on empty it helps come race day.  I am not sure I could go all day without eating before an evening run though, but more from a mental perspective than physical.

Good to see that the smut has started to show it's head Keir!!

One thing at a time, YD, one thing at a time.....

Btw It is a bit of a concern that we havent even got to New Year yet and you cant wait to get stuck into the taper.....

As a further comment on the low glycogen runs, from anecdotal evidence I would suggest that the lighter you are are the more female you are the less you need to be concerned about such things, which might explain the reactions of Speedy and Hilly.

For us less skinny males we can do two things:

a) Lose some weight
b) Drink plenty tap water as I believe it is swimming in Oestrogen these days. You may end up with a squeaky voice, sob uncontrollably at sad animal stories and take an unhealthy interest in Mills and Boon romances but, hey, if it improves your marathon time........

Y D wrote (see)

Keir this double depletion is only just the start. Just you wait, next he will tell you to give a pint of blood before each long run!

Lol!

Sorry for getting confused regarding your lack of bodily function control RJ. I obviously don't know my arse from my, um, male genetal area! Interesting what you said about jam and bread though. I always have cereal in the mornings, usually after the run unless I am running further than 16m and cheerios or cornflakes is usually the prefered choice. Porridge also good, but takes an extra minute or two to prepare. However I do occassionally suffer from 'gastric issues' so might experiment with the jammy sandwich first thing instead. - But not at 5.10am! 

Y 'tinkerman' D - I know what you mean. Despite having every days session written down, I continually tinker and improve the plan. However I have learnt that keeping endless variations is too confusing. I just keep the latest variation and one from about 2 weeks earlier. 

You leave your mothballs out of this Fraser! Perhaps CD needs to chip in with some detail on which bike session improve running performance. A local guy (sub 20min 10m TT rider switched to runner (34.30ish 10k) told me he kept getting injuries when running short intervals, but 30mins in a low gear spinning at 120rpm is just as effective at developing leg speed. I do actually have this down on my plan for Mondays as a recovery session after a LSR and surprised that PRF hasn't questioned it (rapped my knuckles) yet!

Don't worry CD. I wouldn't want to risk mixing it up with the bags already in my frdge from my father / dog / mother-in-law / unborn twin brother. 

The running depleted is quite controversial. I understand why people would do it if they have a particular issue over a few marathons and have identifed it as a weakness. However I do also think that it means that recovery takes longer and this can affect immunity to infections and recovery for later sessions. Personally I would value the latter for consistency over running totally unfueled on a frequent basis. 

That said, for my marathons I have carbo-loaded (without the Aussie depletion) and for the last Abingdon I deliberately avoided any high glycemic carbs on the morning (just porridge with no sweatener and coffee). Before the race, I downed a red bull shot 30mins beforehand and rather than 500ml of energy drink on the line as previous marathons I just had water. I then stuck to gels for the first 6 miles when I started taking gels and SIS go. I believe that this, along with a slow (slightly below ave pace) start helped to keep me burning fat over the first few miles. As I understand it, as soon as: 1. your effort spikes or 2. you ingest some high glycemic carbs - your carb burning system kicks in and it takes a long time of low effort to return to fat burning. 

Only ended up with an easy 5m run home (which was on the plan but I had thought of doing further). Dark, rainy and heavy legs. Really wasn't much fun until The Pixies came on the ipod, followed by some early Leftfield and I got home elated and wanting to go back out for more of the same. 

Talking Heads is about as far back as I go on the current playlist Fraser. Down wid da kidz me. 

You're right though, one of my areas for improvement this time round is not to get too involved chatting with someone for the first few miles who keeps telling me to slow down!