RW Forum Six – Sub 2.50 Kier with Parkrunfan

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Cheerful Dave    pirate
29/12/2012 at 11:38
We three Keir's of orient are... wrote (see)
Perhaps CD needs to chip in with some detail on which bike session improve running performance.

I must admit I've never given it that much thought, it's just preparation for a July ironman and in one year qualifying for the duathlon worlds.  Usually not much further than 50 miles, although I did do a 120 mile ride 2 weeks before this year's VLM which was a mistake.  Apart from that I've never noticed any detrimental effect on running, and I do think that cycling can replace some running miles with no effect on marathon performance, as long as they key sessions are still there.  At the end of the day a properly-paced duathlon with a hard run 5k to finish isn't wildly different from a 20 mile progressive run.

I do find doubles of a run and a turbo session easier than running doubles, certainly if I want two hard sessions.  Mind you, that's usually the only way I can get doubles in as I can turbo at home before my wife gets back from work without leaving the kids alone.

29/12/2012 at 12:34

Keir - that's looking a busy week. I don't know how you fit it in with three young kids around!

looks like things are going well and well done for incorporating the changes. It's not always easy when you have more than one goal. I'm sure the changes made will enhance your likelihood of achieving a sub 2:50.

29/12/2012 at 12:55
That is a full on week Keir. Fine to do that much if that is what you want to do, and more power to you, but I wouldn't say that that is needed to get to 2 50ish in several months. I am running 6-10 miles a day with no thought to pace. Just building a base over next few weeks.
29/12/2012 at 14:50

Keir - Next week would look fine, ie 70-80 miles a week with the vast majority of it easy.

But, as OS says, for the next 4 weeks you can be quite relaxed about missing a day here or there or turning a 10 into a 6 if you fancy on the day.

The main aim is to hit the 8 week period feeling mentally fresh and raring to go.

Bearing in mind your other comment, probably the top priority at the moment is letting your immune system get built back up,

I know that I'm certainly a good bit behind what plenty others are doing at this stage but I'm still comfortable with playing a ticking over waiting game for the time being. It will still be about 70 miles this week with a parkrun and a 6 mile race thrown in, but all of it approached in a relaxed manner.

29/12/2012 at 17:33

5.635 mile race.  Don't cheat yourself or the sport.

29/12/2012 at 17:42

LOL Now you see I didnt know that, if it calls itself the Ward Green 6 I reckon I was justified in estimating the race distance at 6 miles. Looks like an easier day than I thought tomorrow then.

29/12/2012 at 17:58

The nearby Denby Dale Travellers 6 is about 6.2 miles.  Cue for `you can't count pbs from before about 2001' debate...

29/12/2012 at 20:20

Perhaps it is a bit optimistic, but I am on holiday next week and need some excuse to escape the madness!

A steady run today. Bit lumpy, bit windy and I had to climb over fences and walk along fields on a couple of occassions to avoid road covering lakes. 7.39m/m for 12m - just over 90mins. At one point I almost pulled clear with 3 guys getting onto mountain bikes and ended up chasing them for 3 miles. They only pulled away from me on the descents, but it was a nice carrot to have.

I also decided to treat myself with my Xmas money to a decent running jacket. I've used a knackered Karrimor mountain bike fleece which was unclaimed lost property from a bike race I organised many years ago. Not ideal. Took a trip to Ashford Designer outlet to visit the Nike, Adidas and usually decent Reebok store. Very disappointing. Best described by someone who I heard telling his mate: Sportswear? More like shitty polyester chav wear. 

Come on PRF (and others) - I know you have a blog, but the odd park run / 5.635mile race result wouldn't go a miss on here. 

29/12/2012 at 20:42

Keir - Nice to hear of competitive juices bubbling away. That doesnt sound like someone under the weather so does that mean that your ailments are ebbing away?

I dont think you'll learn much from my recent parkruns apart from how relaxed they are compared to the 17:xx s up to October. Today's, for example, was run from cold because of my various duties as ED and it is a course which is about 40 secs slower than a flat one. So a gently progressive workout of 6:27, 6:17, 6;14.

By the end of March that should be looking a bit more like 5:35, 5:30, 5:25 on a flat course or thereabouts.

29/12/2012 at 21:01
Keir, cracking thread!

I have an OMM Kamleika jacket which is very good and not in the least bit chavtastic
29/12/2012 at 21:04

I'm jealous. It must be good to have an event where you can regularly compare your times and see your progression. I have a 80mile round trip to my 'local' park run, so haven't ever run it! Of course, I know what the answer is, but I just haven't got enough free time to organise a local PR every week as well. 

The 'illness' is a funny one. It has been affecting our family for the past 3 weeks or so. Seems to hit one or two of us on a cycle. For myself I feel ok most of the time, but have a sore throat and swollen glands quite a bit of the time, so am just a bit cautious about pushing the effort envelope too much.

29/12/2012 at 21:06

PRF will soon pick up the pace at parkruns as he won't want me chicking him - did I mention I did it once?

Keir - we like to make the most of the school holidays too and find that putting in longer runs is so much easier as we then have the time to rest.  I bet you don't get the benefit of that with 3 youngsters!

29/12/2012 at 21:20

It takes 'negotiation' Hilly. I love to go out early, but I know that providing Mrs Keir with a lie-in is valued currency - so I have learnt to become more flexible with my prefered running time. 

In actual fact, training mileage usually drops during the school hols. I find the lack of routine and less of an excuse to get up for work means I get fewer runs in. However that is something I am really conscious of, so have worked on it this time. 

29/12/2012 at 22:50
parkrunfan wrote (see)

6 x Progressive 10 milers

I mentioned these before with an outline time of 61-63 minutes, consisting of a continual gentle acceleration through from 6:45/mile to maybe 5:50/mile for the final mile.

However, the first two efforts should be scoping sessions where you build the session from the end backwards, eg

a) The first attempt may be a pushed along, but comfortable, first seven miles with all the focus on finishing with a last 3 miles in maybe 6;15, 6:05, 5:50.

b) The second attempt would be similar but with the focus on finishing with a last 5 miles of maybe 6:25, 6:20, 6:15, 6:05, 5:50

The final 4 sessions would then involve the full 10 miles being progressed along from around 6:45 for mile 1.

NB The paces are not 'paces to be hit' but just to give a rough idea of the effort levels involved. Remembering that this isnt a punishment regime, no session should leave you dreading the thought of the next time. When run correctly, you should be buzzing at the end and really

Can I check on these? I stuck the numbers into a spreadsheet and if you do 10 miles from 6:45 to 5:50 that is about 6 seconds faster each mile and if you increase evenly the total time for 10 miles is 62:55.  That comes out as the hardest version and yet is at the upper end of the 61-63 window. Even starting at 6:30 pace (2:50 MP) and speeding up to 5:50 pace give you 61:40 so still short of that 61 upper end. To get 61 minutes you need to go something like 6;40 pace down to 5:30 pace so miel 6 is practically 6 dead and 7 to 10 5:53, 5;46, 5:38 amd 5:30

30/12/2012 at 07:57

PMJ - You're overthinking this one.

The times quoted were just an approx. idea of what the likes of YD or myself would expect to do these sessions in, BR would probably be able to handle a couple of minutes quicker for each session.

But you arent trying to 'hit paces', it is all about an appropriate effort level.

The only reason for quoting times at all is because a 'progressive 10 miler' could be used quite correctly to describe a session that started at 8:00/mile and finished at 7:00/mile but that would be a session working significantly different areas to the sessions proposed.

Another way of looking at it is that by the time you reach the final session you should be looking at approx. your 10 mile race time + 2-3 minutes.

30/12/2012 at 09:15

The way I see it is that those aren't prescriptive paces to get anal about, but a general guideline which will dependent on many internal and external factors.

I have a slightly different approach to the 10 milers, trying to avoid the temptation to increase the pace at the end, instead trying to keep within a certain heart rate zone and minimising the pace drift within that zone over a period.

30/12/2012 at 16:54

Turned up at a mates at 7am, only to be informed that rather than 20 he only wanted to do 15m. Usually I would have carried on and done the rest afterwards, but as general concensus seemed to be that next week is quite heavy, I was happy with 15.5m @ 7.44m/m. From 8m onwards I got a bit of arse-crack chaffage which, despite using nappy cream after a shower later on, meant I walked around a local nature park with the kids looking like John Wayne this afternoon. 

30/12/2012 at 16:59

Weekly Summary - A good base week, despite 2 days of illness (no running) and a family feasting holiday. 53 miles (9, 0, 0, 12, 5, 12, 15) - 7hr 15mins. 


30/12/2012 at 17:30
I'm loving this thread, in many ways it is way behind me but it is interesting to read the views of more experienced runners

Well done Keir good start to the training
30/12/2012 at 17:32

A solid enough relaxed week, Keir.

I would expect your easy paces to feel very comfortable at 7:30-8:00/mile at the moment but when we get into the 8 week window, if you're managing to complete most of the key sessions, you'll be glad of slowing the pace down from there on some of the easy runs.

Arse crack chaffage sounds a little unpleasant

Since you asked about feedback on parkruns and 5.6 mile races (The Ward Green 6 in Barnsley):

Today was set up to be a decent hard workout without breaking anything. The plan was to do 6 miles warm/up, 3 miles steady and then 2+ miles as a more pushed along effort. So, a 6-3-2 session. Imagine my surprise when, as the first entrant of the day, I was handed race number 632! Spooky.

The stats will mean absolutely nothing due to an extremely lumpy course and strong winds. But since it is an effort level session those things are irrelevant.

6 miles w/u @ 9:04/mile with friends and then the race was:

6:09, 6:00, 7:23, 6:07, 6:24 and 7:39/mile for the last 0.6x miles moving from 35th at the first mile to 15th at the end.

Ticked all the boxes for an end of December effort.

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