RW Forum Six – Sub 3.30

Hi Hilly sounds like you had a lovely run today, i really like it in that part of sheffield. Im thinking about doing the 10k thats held in Encliffe park later this year. Wheres the first xc tomorrow? I have a feeling the curry might help (depending on what you decide to eat that is....I had a full peshwari nan before the park run which I think might have done the trick)! Good luck tomorrow.

Thanks Bro, good luck as well tomorrow.

Minni wrote (see)

Sarah - I started reading that with a when you said you'd done it on the TM but then it changed to a when you said you'd got to 14 feeling good and finally a at the last mile! 

That's a great run at a great pace.  Its interesting that you didn't start to tire near the end as you have in your other longer runs, probably because you'd started a bit slower.  

No matter how far I run I almost always speed up in the last couple of miles.  I just can't help it, once I know I'm on the home straight so to speak it just happens automatically.  When i first started training for marathons I used to run my long runs with a runner who had a 3:02 time to his name and he always made me run faster at the end, so that's possibly where it comes from.   I don't think this is a problem and must be beneficial so long as it doesn't leave us too knackered.

 

Thanks Minni  for the , i did find the run quite easy, I wasnt once out of breath and my legs felt great (and still do).....least thats the proof I need that running slower is beneficial. Next I need to see that it doesnt make my race time slower (as thats what im worring about now, even though youve given me evidence that it wont, its just such a difficult concept to understand).  Im glad that its not just me who speeds up towards the end....I guess it must be a good sign that you still have something left in the tank! All my best races (with regards to time and how I have felt) ive gradually increased the pace throughout the race.

Im working tomorrow and then I have to head up to newcastle straight afterwards to celebrate my niece turning one and my mother in law turning 60 so I dont think I will get chance to do a recovery run, but I will be taking my running stuff up with me so if I can I will, or I will suggest a walk if the weather is nice.

Im aiming to run outdoors on sunday morning around derwent....I spotted a potential route when I was up last weekend which means that I dont have to drive to the start and potentially get lost. The only downsider is it will finish with a mamouth hill....but I guess what doesnt kill me will make me stronger!!

Its rubbish having to go back to work so you have my sympathy. The governors meeting doesnt sound like much fun either especially if it makes you miss your run with your RC.

If you plague BR then I might plague you!!

Hi Sarah, well done on your run today - to do a run of that length on the treadmill is pretty impressive. Going by what you said I'll stick with my resistance work in the gym as long as I can fit it all in. I do a pilates class as well which I find quite helpful for running and I'll certainly keep that up. I might skip the circuit training though.

Sarah - Really appreciate the advice. Will look into possible races again. Can see that it would be a good idea to get racing experience as imagine it could be a hell of alot to take in on  VLM day as a complete newbie especially with more and more stress/excitement building as it gets nearer race day. Gotta be careful not to put to much stress on it all........although starting to get a bit cocky wiv mates and sponsers that i will break the 4 hours

Good Morning, looks like a good day for travelling Sarah.

I tried to have an early night last night, but I couldn't sleep at all...I whipped some horseradish into mashed potato perhaps that did it, or perhaps my body can't cope without alcohol.

I got out quite early for my run, I wanted a bit of practise on the Half mara course, it's very close to our house so i did 11 miles at avg 9:04mm, bit misleading as there is a long climb in the route and an equally long downhill.

always a good feeling to get the LSR out of the way. Hope to have a recovery run with Mrs P tomorrow, I'll join her for half of her run.

LTB- definitely sign up for a half before VLM- although I doubt that anything can really prepare you for a race of that scale. Simple things like- what to wear whilst waiting for the start, how to deal with eating/ drinking before the race and the inevitable toilet queues, what to do afterwards- all helps on race day if you've some experience of something similar. Managing at drinks stations etc is also helpful.

Long runs on tready- I have done a 20 miler in the past - at my slow pace this takes over 3 hours- luckily my gym has a very liberal policy ( or perhaps no policy at all...........) over prolonged hogging of treadmilss, but the 'mill switches itself off after 90 minutes, so you have to get off, jog over to refill your water bottle while it re-sets itself, and then away you go again- I've watched some very long films while on the tready, but the only time I really enjoy long runs on there now is when they are showing a marathon on TV, and I can run "with" them- is that mad?

I did a 14.5 mile LSR today ( outdoors)- with my slow pace that was 2hr 25 mins. I will build slowly up to 3hr 15 as a LSR, and stick at about that - even though that is slightly shy of 20 miles, it is better not to spend too long on these LSR's- a fact that I think is not understood by that slower end of the field- if your LSR takes nearly 4 hours, it means recovery takes too long. Obvioulsy for my ultra run, I need to do back- to back LSR's- perhgaps 3 hours one day , then about 10- 15 miles the next. I think this is more sensible than going out for 5 hours or more.

tricialitt wrote (see)

.... it is better not to spend too long on these LSR's- a fact that I think is not understood by that slower end of the field- if your LSR takes nearly 4 hours, it means recovery takes too long. 

Hi Tricia.  Do you have a source for this?  It's not the first time I've seen it mentioned and I'm interested in reading up about it.  My 20m LSR will take up to about 3:30 (based on today's 15m, which took 2:34).  Would this be considered excessive?  

No - can't remember where I read the advice about avoiding going too much over 3 hr for LSR's. It was probably on here.

Ok, this is the reply from Steve Marathon Coach about resistance training;

"On the key runs - speedwork and long runs, I would avoid strength training and resistance work and don't see a problem in doing them when you are doing easy runs or recovery runs or on your running rest days. Personally, I prefer doing the strength training after i've run when I am warmed up though they are good warm up exercises.

Presume you have seen Sam's picture guide: http://hikaridesign.com/other/running-specific-circuit-nov-2012.pdf

which I think are very good. "

Im still waiting for Sams reply

Hi Mr Puffy hopefully a busy day at work = a day a work that goes quickly! It sounds like you had a fantastic run today and looking at my pace aims your average time was almost bang in the middle, so I recokon it was a perfect training run. What half marathon is it? My sleeping pattern this week has been horrendous. I blame all the late nights, sleep ins and alcohol the previous two weeks for it...im hoping that I will get back in to a normal routine this weekend (I almost sound like a baby)!

Hi Andy i would love to have a go at something like pilates or yoga but im struggling to find a class that fits around my life at the moment. I dont think I would be very good at either but Ive heard lots of good press about them being good for your running and core strength. I think im going to try and do some circuits later in the year after marathon training ready for the next mens health rat race in October...I have a feeling it might be helpful for that

LTB I had set my eyes on getting a sub 3:30 last year for my first marathon but after a month I realised I wasnt going to get it after missing lots of training so I just amended my targets. Do aim for your sub 4 hours if that is what you feel capable of doing but dont feel under pressure from others to get that. Lots can happen in the 4 months until marathon day so take every day as it comes and if you have any hiccups....or alternatively training is going great amend your target. I can rememeber all my training runs going great after my illness. I did a 22 mile run with a friend and thoroughly enjoyed it and thought the marathon would be a breeze. The first 16 miles of the marathon was but after mile 16 everything started to hurt and by mile 24 I just wanted it to end. 26.2 miles is a very long way and people should be proud what ever time they complete it in.

I got very emotional at the start of VLM, I had watched it with my parents for so many years and all of a sudden I was a part of it all. The theme tune brought tears to my eyes!

Hi Tricialitt, at london I felt like I was in the toilet queue all the time. Think it was nerves more than anything, but I would go and after 10 minutes, felt like I should start queuing again as I would be needing it in 20 minutes!

Wow 20 miles is a long run on the TM...Ive never managed it for that long, 16 has been the most I have done so far. Im hoping this time round the 15 will be my most! Our TM stop after 60 mins but luckily they reset themselve very quickly. I would normally run the 15 miles in just under 2 hours, but with slowing my pace down it did mean I had to restart the treadmil an extra time.

With regards to running whilst watching others run...I did the same whilst the olympics were on....the only problem was I kept on trying to keep up with all the elites....luckily I wasnt running as far as them!

I completley agree with you, I dont think I could run for longer than 3.5 - 4 hours max on a training run......it wouldnt really leave much of the day left to do anything else. I would prefer the two shorter (if you can call them that) runs back to back on consequitive days.

Well done on your run today....a great start to your weekend

Training Diary for forum 6 sub 3:30 (VLM)

Week 1, Day 6. Aim - rest day, although yesterday Minni suggested trying to do a recovery run

2.12 mile recovery run @ 9:13 min/mls on average (to the gym)

12 mile bike ride on the exercise bike at the gym. Hill setting level 9. 36 mins

360m swim, front crawl. Was actually planning on 1000m but the pool was full of children who kept getting in my way so I threw a strop and got out (and I was running out of time to get home to go up to newcastle). Does any one elses gym let children use the pool to play in rather than swim...surely they should be at a leisure pool for that?

Tricia - maybe we both read the same post 

So much contradictory advice sometimes.  I've also seen it advised that the longest run should be approximately the same length (time-wise) as your target marathon, which would mean running 22-23 miles.

Horses for courses I suppose.

Sarah - you did a triathlon today!  

8 tomorrow?  You could put in some faster paced miles towards the end if you feel up to it?  I did 9 yesterday with 3x 100m strides in the last 3 miles and this brought them down into the 7s.  Quite a nice way to get the speed up without too much effort.

Did you feel yesterday's 15 in the legs when you were working out today?

I always get emotional at the beginning of the London Marathon.  I don't know why because no other race does that to me but I think its because I know its a big deal for everyone and I feel so lucky to be part of it.   Don't worry about the toilet queues on the green start.  Us regulars have it down to a fine art!

On that note, I booked the travelodge at Southwark where we've stayed for a few years and got a real bargain - £160 for three nights.  We tend to socialise a lot VLM weekend so only need a bed and its ideal. (Chandos for post marathon drinks I guess Hilly goes to the Red Lion, which is where the sub 3 tend to hang out.  I always imagine someone with the clipboard, a la package holiday stylee, standing at Admiralty Arch asking what time you achieved and pointing you in the direction of which pub to go to!)

Northeast rail tickets go on sale later this month and I usually manage to get those for under £25 return from up here.

I'm sure I read once that you're safe up to 3:30 hrs but after than certain physiological changes occur - probably brain cells die.   I do a couple of 3:15hr runs and they usually come out at about 22 miles.  However... I could easily do 4-5 hours in the hills and only cover 17-18 miles and because these are very slow then don't necessarily take any more out of me.

Parkrun for me today with my son - his first, age 12.  So made the 100m round trip to run 3 miles @ 9 m/m!  Worth it though and very proud of him.  Still awaiting results....

It is Four Villages Half Marathon in Helsby.

Last runnings:

                              Four Villages            VLM

2012                   1:40                               3:39
2011                   1:38                               3:33
2010                   1:42                               3:36
2009                   1:44                               3:46 (Paris)
2008                                                          4:12

I was thinking about my longest run today, it's usually 22 miles in about 3:17 I was wondering whether to really slow down the last one but make it longer in time?

Can't belive it took me 20 minures to type that!

I'm usually puking up in Green Park after London I'm afraid but on the 3:45 thread we met up at the Sherlock Holmes in Northumberland Avenue a couple of times.

I have been to Chandos several times when in London but never after the race

Sorry if I don't comment on everyone, but I can see lots of good posts and sometimes limited time to respond means I just pick out what I remember by the finish without having to go back and forth to other pages

Lol Minni I have always gone to the Red Lion even without a sub 3  Although when I did sub 3 I actually went to Chandos, so I must get sent the wrong way by the person with the clip board each year

Sarah - you're running really strong and I know you're limited by your job to how much you can put in, but you do have in my opinion the ability to make great inroads into race times over all distances!  We have run at Derwent a few times, it's a delightful area! 

On the finishing runs at a stronger pace than the overall run, there is a school of thought that this is a positive thing to do.  It allows you to work at say 5k/10k/1/2M pace for say the last miles or so of a run without causing fatigue for the next run, but allowing the adaptations that running at these speeds brings.  So if you feel at the end of any run the need to up the pace for the last few minutes personally I feel it's a positive and will not affect future runs or sessions but will make you stronger!

Tricialitt - not mad, I've done a few 20 milers on the treadmill myself.  Not to say I've enjoyed them, but I believe it takes mental strength to do and I have then drawn on that when races have felt tough!

I did the Dewsbury parkrun this morning in a steady time just to have a leg loosener before the afternoon Yorkshire XC at Lightwater Valley (that's where it was Sarah.  The XC was tough as they always are, but not muddy.  It was more uneven with long grass and ruts, which made for a bit of ankle twisting at places.  One steep hill to go up 4 times and a few short sharp hills, which sometimes feel worse than a long drag.  I did okay, but way down on where I would expect to be when really fit, but happy enough to be second counter for the club.  Did feel the parkrun hills and Thursday's 20 miler in my legs, but a good training workload all the same.

Hi Tenjiso, id read last year not to do any more than 21-22 miles (in the time your hoping to do the full 26.2) before the marathon. However ive read a few things this year that seems to say up to 24 miles is ok for experienced runners.

Minni wrote (see)

Sarah - you did a triathlon today!  

8 tomorrow?  You could put in some faster paced miles towards the end if you feel up to it?  I did 9 yesterday with 3x 100m strides in the last 3 miles and this brought them down into the 7s.  Quite a nice way to get the speed up without too much effort.

Did you feel yesterday's 15 in the legs when you were working out today?

I always get emotional at the beginning of the London Marathon.  I don't know why because no other race does that to me but I think its because I know its a big deal for everyone and I feel so lucky to be part of it.   Don't worry about the toilet queues on the green start.  Us regulars have it down to a fine art!

On that note, I booked the travelodge at Southwark where we've stayed for a few years and got a real bargain - £160 for three nights.  We tend to socialise a lot VLM weekend so only need a bed and its ideal. (Chandos for post marathon drinks I guess Hilly goes to the Red Lion, which is where the sub 3 tend to hang out.  I always imagine someone with the clipboard, a la package holiday stylee, standing at Admiralty Arch asking what time you achieved and pointing you in the direction of which pub to go to!)

Northeast rail tickets go on sale later this month and I usually manage to get those for under £25 return from up here.

 

 

 

Hi Minni, I never even looked at it like that.....was like a sprint tri, but without the speed . My legs have felt suprisingly fine as though I didnt even run yesterday....which is quite a difference as normally the day after my long run my toes are sore and my legs tend to ache a little.

That sounds like a fabulous plan for tomorrow.

Congratulations on your family outing to do the park run....I really cant believe that you travelled a 100m ound trip to do it though (although saying that I booked a half day off work and did a 120m round trip on three wednesday nights last year to do the south yorkshire championships, that are only 5 miles long)!

I wish I had booked the train for London now! Weve booked a package deal (£175) with Moxons of Maltby (as thats who the rest of the running club are going with). The coach takes us down on the fri, to the race sun morning and then home sun night. Were staying in a hilton hotel, which was very nice last year).......didnt know there was a party afterwards though . Wheres chandos?

Hi Mr Puffy Four Villages Half Marathon sounds like a nice race. Whats your target time this year?

Thankyou Hilly for your kind and encouraging comment and for your advice, im extremly grateful. It sounds like you did well today doing a park run and a xc.....I really dont think I could have motivated myself to do the park run in the morning knowing I would be doing a xc in the afternoon. Lightwater valley is out my way . Why do they make you run round and round and up very steep and slippy hills several times in a cross country ?

My plan for next week/week 2

Monday;        Netball training; 30 mins warm up. 60 mins of easy games

Tuesday;       Netball match; 15 mins warm up. 60 mins game....difficult depending

                       on which position im playing ? C ? WD

Wednesday;  8.25 mile speed training.

• 3 mile warm up starting at slow end of easy and

          finishing at steady pace (@ 9:30- 7:55)

• 5 x 100m strides
• 2 x 2m at HMP (@ 7:15) with 60 secs recovery
• 1 mile cool down

Thursday;      REST

Friday;           16 ml easy (@8:50 - 9:30)

Saturday;       3 m recovery, slow (@9:35 +)

Sunday;         10 ml easy (@8:50 - 9:30)

Total Milage 37

Minni, Im wondering if I can aim to do my last 1-2 miles at MP for my LSR or is it too early to be doing this?