RW Forum Six – Sub 4 Running Rachel with Cheerful Dave

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17/01/2013 at 19:59

Treadmill run done. 4 miles @ constant 8:26 min mile...wasn't so bad, but the thought of 15 miles on the treadmill is awful, so I'm so hoping the snow holds off!! Ricky, it looks like it's a done deal with snow for you!!

17/01/2013 at 22:09
Well done for your run tonight Rachel. 15 miles on the treadmill is not happening with me ! I'm definitely getting out regardless of the weather. Is it that you can't cope with the cold or weary about the underfoot conditions ? Good luck if you end up doing your 15 on the treadmill
17/01/2013 at 22:11

I was worrying about conditions underfoot, but actually, we are no longer forecast snow till Monday now, so I may get out after all!!

17/01/2013 at 22:27
We are forecast snow in London from tomorrow. As long as it does not freeze then an LSR on Saturday is possible.

I like you would find it very hard to do that type of mileage on the dreadmill but at leastt it keeps the legs moving. If I cannot run on the roads on Saturday not sure I will be able to get to the gym as it is about 2 miles away and all uphill.

The problem with running on the roads after a snowfall is that bit of ice you do not see unless it is a fresh fall in which case it should be lovely.

So Rachel take care out there as it is better to be really safe and not undo all the weeks of training so far.

It must be frustrating not to be able to get quality runs in.

I guess Carter running in the Peaks has its own unique challenges when there is snow but being off road is probably safer from a slipping on ice point of view.

Intervals done on the running track tonight. Really cold and when it gets inside the lungs it makes running so much harder.

Ricky - you are right. I have 3 young kids so going out for a run 3 nights on the spin straight after coming in from work does not work. So hence the late nights. Last night was exceptionally late and it made running the intervals tougher tonight for sure.

Rest day tomorrow and I am looking forward to it.
17/01/2013 at 22:28

Steady 6 miler just done ... 8.20 pace.

No snow yet - wet & gusty but surprsing mild at +5 considering its supposed to be snowing in a couple of hours.

Rachel - 15 miles on treadmill is unthinkable.. don't think I could cope with the boredom! Hopefully you'll avoid the torture if the snow now doesnt come untill monday as forecast.

Tomorrows a rest day for me followed by a 6miler @ MP on Saturday and only a 10 on Sun (this is my 3rd week which steps back the LSR mileage in preparation for pushing it up again in weeks 4 & 5)

17/01/2013 at 22:48
Ricky - good run tonight. Are you following a particular plan or is it your own version. Apols if you have covered this already. And when is your marathon and what target have you set yourself ?
17/01/2013 at 23:45

Oh and 10 x60 strides at the end of the run tonight.

Carl - I'm using Hal Higdon Intermediate 2 but have modified it slightly. I have increased each LSR by a couple of miles and, as the plan has no speed sessions, I have changed the tues run to a tempo run, the wed run incorprates a hill session and the thurs run has some strides at the end.

Its an 18 week plan and I am in week 3 - this will bring me to a Mayday Bank Holiday Marathon which will be either Belfast or Limerick.

I would be happy with just sub 4. That said I was checking my old 2006 running diary and my current pace, HR, mileages are pretty much identical to those at the same point in my training back then. In fact I'm still a little heavier than I was then so based on that I'm fairly pleased. I ended up running 3.44 in that 2006 spring marathon so  am starting to think if I stay injury free that sub 3.45 might just possible again.

You seem to following a similar pattern to me & at a similar pace - 3 mid week runs back to back and 2 weekend runs? Maybe you are following a HH plan also?! I assume you are training for London or Paris maybe?

18/01/2013 at 00:50
Ricky - yes the core of my plan stems from Hal Higdon but like you I have modified it based on what I picked up from this forum to have tempo on Tuesday and Intervals on Thursday. I am doing an LSR on Saturday with a recovery on Sunday rather than an MP session on Saturday and a LSR on Sunday.

Weekly mileage is currently up in the 40 - 45 range.

During February I plan to use my midweek medium run as a MP session and also introduce some MP into the LSR.

I am targeting a 3.45 time in Paris on 7th April which would be a PB for me.

I have run London twice but have not prepared as well as I am trying to do this time and did not break 4 hours either time. Ran the first with an injury and picked up an injury in the second.

As long as I stay injury free sub 4 is definitely on and I think 3.45 is possible.

Need to find a suitable half marathon last weekend Feb of first weekend March to see where I am.

So far so good. Am planning to run 18 / 20 miles on Saturday weather permitting and cut back next week ( 3 weeks of increasing the LSR) but might have to switch it if the snow gets in the way.
18/01/2013 at 08:49

Yes Carl - based on your pace & providing training continues to go well sub 3.45 looks realistic for you.

So you must be about 7 weeks into your plan then?... Paris will be amazing - I was there on a long weekend and got up early one morning and did a 10 mile route taking in most of the sights ... very inspirational run!

Good luck with the LSR on Sat - still no snow here!

18/01/2013 at 09:08

No sign of Rachel then, I wonder if the treadmill has done for her !!

Ricky/Carl - we are all on the Hal Higden plan then and aiming for 3:45-4:00.

More snow planned here for practically the next 3 or 4 days, should be nice.

Have a good run today whoever is running.

Cheerful Dave    pirate
18/01/2013 at 10:36

Carl,  when you say you're doing some MP sessions what are you basing that MP on, 4 hours or 3:45?  There's quite a difference between the two, over 30s per mile.

It's important to know what MP feels like because you want to nail that pace in the early miles, which is hard because by the time you run your marathon MP will feel really easy at first, but of course that's because you're going to stick at that pace (or close to it) for 26.2 miles.

Setting MP based on a target time is a little bit dangerous, because when you toe the line there'll be a pace that you can sustain for the distance.  Problem is, that could be 3:45 pace, or 3:50, or 3:40: you can make a pretty good guess based on your training, but ultimately you'll only find out later on the course.  If you guess right, you'll have a perfect day, if you guess low you'll run strong, enjoy your day but ultimately feel that you could have gone faster, if you guess high you'll start to struggle but may not fade too much, but really overstretch and you'll crash and burn.

Look at the results of any big marathon and there's always a whole bunch of people who run the first half just under 1:30 then fade badly.  Those are the people for whom the carrot of 3 hours was too big: they could have run a solid 3:05 or 3:10 but gambled and paid the price.  Same at 4 hours.  You're in the fortunate position that sub 4 would be well within you, and based on your training paces 3:45 probably is too.  Nearer the time though, you'll have to be realistic over what you think you're capable of: you'll have an idea of what you might be able to do if everything went perfectly and you'll know what you could do comfortably.  Where you set yourself is a matter of balancing risk against reward: how badly do you want that ideal time?

18/01/2013 at 12:11

Rest day for me today! There is a light dusting of snow here, but I'm hoping it will be safe to run 15 miles outdoors tomorrow.

18/01/2013 at 12:15

Go for it !

18/01/2013 at 13:00

Great post Dave, people can get a lot from that.

Cheerful Dave    pirate
18/01/2013 at 13:55

It was a bit of a ramble Nykie, but hopefully someone does!

18/01/2013 at 13:58

Good advice Dave - my one and only previous Marathon back in '06 - I ran with a companion who I knew was slightly faster.
As you say the first half went past with ease feeling good but faster than I intended @ 1.49 due to running with my companion. Didnt worry me too much though as I felt comfortable - however at mile 18 I really started to struggle although maintained pace until about mile 23 until the pace dropped off by over 1 min/ml.... subsequently the split for the second half was 1.55
So I supposed I guessed a little high and struggled in the latter stages as you say Dave.
The perils of a running partner! The company is great especially in the latter stages but differing pace can cause problems I suppose.

Carter - this will be interesting with 3 of us following HH plan and at similar pace levels. What I intend to do differently than with my last marathon training effort is to be disciplined and run my LSRs no faster than 9.30 pace. I find it psychologically difficult not to know that I can run my 20 milers at MP - last time my 4 longest runs 20/21 milers were all run at 8.30 pace which was naughty. Again some of this was down to my faster running companion! I suppose its a mind thing and you've got to trust the training!

Edited: 18/01/2013 at 14:00
18/01/2013 at 14:57

Ricky - I agree about the pace. I can manage 10:00 pace on say 8 or 9 miles but start getting above that and it can be difficult to maintain focus on that pace. However, it's good practise for the marathon as we will be running at a certain pace for about 4 hours, or less hopefully. I do all my training on my own as a) I dont want to have any issues like you have mentioned and b) I'm a miserable bugger and dont want any company ! 

Dave - in your opinion, at what stage of our training could we set our target time ? 

18/01/2013 at 15:27

I just wanted to thank Cheerful Dave for the advice on here.  I am targetting a sub-4 (again) and yesterday I had a very good (for me) 15 mile LSR - 2hrs30.  I was concentrating on making the last 5 miles the same pace as the first 5 - which I managed for about the first time ever  (I usually drop off the pace on LSRs)  - Now I'm feeling a bit more confident this time round.    

18/01/2013 at 16:21

Dave, you are a wealth of information, tis true! Gearing up for the 15 miles in the morning...I will just grit my teeth and get on with it snow run or treadmill (urghh....) watch this space!

18/01/2013 at 17:59
Good post, Dave. You sum up my dilemma in trying to establish what my MP should be. In last year's VLM I think I guessed too high. I started ok, sort of collapsed (pace-wise, not literally) somewhere after halfway and then pulled it back at the end to do 3:54. But my training paces and races suggested my MP was realistic. Is it just best to be conservative? It's frustrating thinking it might be all down to guesswork!
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