RW Forum Six – Sub 4 Running Rachel with Cheerful Dave

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18/01/2013 at 18:52
Cheerful Dave wrote (see)

Carl,  when you say you're doing some MP sessions what are you basing that MP on, 4 hours or 3:45?  There's quite a difference between the two, over 30s per mile.

Dave, excellent question and post. This is so important and I must admit that when I was talking about doing some MP runs in February I had no idea about all the different things I need to think of.

I get it that it is so important to get the feel for what running at MP is al about. at this moment I think that MP for 4 hours is well within my capability. That said I have not got under 4 hours in my last 2 attempts and that will always be nagging doubt in my head.

But can I run consistently at 8:30 mm.

My tempo and interval sessions would suggest that this is possible but as you say it will very much depend on how I feel on the day.

My current thinking is to do my MP training runs at 3:45 pace initially to see how it feels. If I can sustain it then I will keep working on this. If not then I will have to readjust.

While I am targetting 3:45 I absolutely must get in under 4 hours so i will not want to jeopordise this by running the first half too fast and then blowing up in the second.

After all there will be other marathons.

But thanks for getting this issue out there as it is so important to think about this and not wander into this section of training without understanding what getting it wrong might mean.


Edited: 18/01/2013 at 18:53
18/01/2013 at 19:27

Heavyweight - sounds like a good 15 miler there!

Rachel - Good luck with your 15 miler, hopefully its on nice soft snow!

Rest day for me today but it has snowed pretty heavily this afternoon and we probably have about 3-4 inches of snow here now. I dont think I will be doing parkrun tomorrow and I think the half marathon on Sunday is looking doubtful too

18/01/2013 at 19:43
About 2 inches of snow here in north west London. Planning to get up, have a bowl of porridge and go for my LSR providing it does not freeze overnight. Hoping to get 18+ miles in but we will see.

Best of luck to everyone who is going to brave the elements tomorrow.
18/01/2013 at 20:30
Hah, ive wimped out of a tempo tonigh. Not for the cold, more fear of slipping running sub 8 min miles! Hmmm, annoying.

Interesting discussion on pacing. My plan is geared to 3'45 which I gather is 8'35 pace all the way? I intend to run at around 8'50 first half and 8'40 second half... Any thoughts on that anyone? I guess I have to see how the reading half goes on 17 mar in advance of vlm and take a call on pacing at that stage. Ultimately for my first marathon my aim is just to break 4 hours...
18/01/2013 at 20:43

Good luck on the LSR's everyone - careful of the white stuff!

18/01/2013 at 23:01

WC2 - It probably depends on what you really think you can achieve. And a half marathon like reading will give you a mcuh better view as to where you are and what the most realistic marathon time will be based on how you perform there.

I suspect that the seasoned veterans at marathon running would suggest that the biggest mistake that first time marathon runners make is going out too fast and blowing up during the second half.

They will also talk about negative splits and doing the second half faster than the first half.

But if you think you can do a 3:45 and feel ok on the morning of the race, then settling into a 3:45 pace during the first half and going steady all the way is probably the better strategy.

Starting slower than 3:45 and trying to make it up in the second half is probably going to end in dissapointment if the 3:45 is the time you actually want to achieve.

But I am no expert but a mere novice when it comes to running 26.2 miles.

19/01/2013 at 11:15
15 miles done this morning felt good 2hrs 19 at 9.16 pace, no snow here perfect running conditions cold with no wind, with tomorrow's recovery run should come in at around 36 miles for the week.
Happy running everyone.
19/01/2013 at 11:18

15 miles for me too Dd! I am amazad at my mental strength as I ran it on the treadmill! I broke it up into 3  miles chunks to make it more manageable and hopped off for a drink and energy gel before the next block. Daytime tv eased the boredom, but I would much rather have been outside!

19/01/2013 at 11:20

Oh, forgot to say, did the first 5 miles in 45 mins and the next two in 49 mins. Total time 2:23 average pace 9:5

19/01/2013 at 12:20
God running Rachel and DD
19/01/2013 at 12:24
carterusm wrote (see)
God running Rachel and DD

Wow - I wish I could run like God

Cheerful Dave    pirate
19/01/2013 at 12:56

Nice one Rachel.  How did it feel?  Nice & easy, if a bit dull?

Good run too Dd.

WC2, did you mean 8:30 & 8:40 halves for 8:35 average?  If so then that's certainly doable, as long as you don't panic when you get slowed by the crowds after the start (and walkers, who always seem to be in front wherever you start from!), find the first mile takes 9 minutes and try & make it back by running 8 for the next one.  I've done that before, you spend the first miles speeding up & slowing trying to get the average right and it just kills you.

I managed 20 today, easy run through the snow to a parkrun, which was a lot more rutted & icy than I'd have liked, then the run back home again.  I forgot that my trail shoes are a bit stiffer than my regular shoes and I've got some lovely blisters now.

19/01/2013 at 13:22

Hi Dave,

yes, it felt easy, to be honest I felt as though I could have done another 5 mile block easily enough...(though I was glad it was over!!) 3 mile recovery run tomorrow...

19/01/2013 at 13:36

Excellent running everyone.

Rachel, while the dreadmill might be boring it just shows what you can do when you put your mind to it. This mental strength will come in handy when you hit mile 20 on marathon day.

I got out for my LSR today. Under foor conditions were either snow or heavy slush so expecting my legs to be a little more tired as this made running a little harder.

20.5 miles in 3:11 which equates to 9:21mm.

After about 2 hours the temperature dropped by a few degrees the wind picked up and had some sleat for the last 30 mins or so. Not ideal running conditions.

Will probably do my recovery run at the gym tomorrow and go for a swim as well.

19/01/2013 at 13:42

Well done Dave and Carl on your 20 milers in this inclement weather!!

19/01/2013 at 14:21
Great running everyone
19/01/2013 at 15:32
Fair play Rachel - more than I could do!
Good running also DD and Carl & Dave - wow 20 milers... Good pace too Carl - did u feel u should have run it more slowly?

I had a 6mile MP run to do today. In the dilemma that others are having in that I'm not sure what my MP is yet? So I decided to run on the effort/heart rate I would feel comfortable at trying to maintain during a marathon. I ended running an avg of 8.28 miles at avg HR of 154. My race pace avg HR in recent Halfs has been approx 10bpm more @ 162 - 164.

Not really sure what this tells me but I think it indicates 8.30 mmls might be quie close to target MP?
19/01/2013 at 16:00

That would be a good pace Ricky!

19/01/2013 at 19:54
Ricky - I need to look at the detail of my run when I get round to uploading it but for most of the run My watch was telling me that I was running at an average of 9:29 / mile.

I was quite comfortable at this and tend to do most of my LSR's at around this pace.

I know a lot of people flak about no more than 10.00 m / mile for LSR's but Hal Higdon says that anything between 30 seconds and 1 min 30 seconds above MP is ok for the LSR.

I guess as long as you can hold a conversation the pace is about right whatever the pace is.
19/01/2013 at 20:51
Carl - Yea come to think of it I did read something on the HH site about LSRs being 30secs - 90secs slower than MP so I guess 9.30 is about right. I run my LSRs at 9.30 too and it is nice and comfortable - but I always think I should be going slower!

20 miles is brill - how did u find it? Did u feel the legs tire badly? Any stiffness or soreness in the few hours after?
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