RW Forum Six – Sub 4 Running Rachel with Cheerful Dave

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05/01/2013 at 10:50

Thanks Carter, yes, I possibly should run it slower..I just find slow hard! Will wait to see if I get a slap on the wrist from Dave! How's your ankle doing?

I've done a parkrun once last year with Jess who posted here last week. She is MUCH younger than me (and fast!) I decided to try and keep up with her and managed 23 mins. I don't think I'll ever run that fast again, and my word, it hurt!

Cheerful Dave    pirate
05/01/2013 at 11:10

As long as you were running it easy then pace is to an extent incidental.  You're better off running on how you feel rather than to a fixed pace because we don't really know what your marathon pace is yet.  When you get longer (say 16 miles) we'll need to watch for you going too fast, though.

As for music, well I'd echo what Spoons said.  By all means use it in training, but be prepared to have to run your races without it.  Sometimes it's banned, and even if it isn't, a race is a completely different vibe to long miles on your own and better experienced without a backing track, IMO.

On that note, it's worth having a thought (maybe during your long runs) on what you'd do if things aren't ideal on the day.  You might not be able to use music, your watch might give up on you before you start, you might drop gels, all sorts of things.  Some people will panic when that happens, others just get on with it.  They're the ones who have at least thought about what they'd do beforehand, so it doesn't come as a complete surprise.

I sometimes use parkruns as part of a longer run (anything from 10 to 20 miles) just to vary the pace and try something different.  Although these days I'm more often taking my son to our nearest one.  That's what we did this morning.  23 minutes is pretty decent, there's definitely some speed there!

carterusm wrote (see)

Dave - do more experienced runners like you mentally prepare for training runs or do you just lace up and get on with it ?

I guess I'm closer to just lace up and get on with it, although longer runs take a bit more planning, if only to fit in around family life.  You have to at least think about what you're going to do for that training run, and you still need motivation to get out of the door when it's wet and miserable outside! 

05/01/2013 at 11:21
The ankle is better today thanks but I'm going to resist the temptation to go for a run today. Will probably go for a walk in the peaks with the missus later instead. Our mutt, Harvey, is out of action at the moment following an op on his cruciate ligament. When he is back in actions hope to get on some long walks with him at the weekends to supplement my running.
23 minutes you say. Sounds like a challenge I can't resist
Dave - interesting that you say Rachel should run based on how she feels. What makes you adopt such an approach rather then run to specific times for each session ?
05/01/2013 at 12:02
Rachel same as you today 10 miles easy pace 1 hour 30mins 6 seconds but finished on a hill rather than a sprint agree with you though difficult to run so slow, without my iPod today I would have gone mental, also first run in around two months with no rain or wind - happy days
Cheerful Dave    pirate
05/01/2013 at 12:41

Carter, it's really a case of not really knowing what her marathon pace is.  Trying to prescribe a set pace aimed at a fairly arbitrary target is likely to mean she's running either too fast or too slow for her ability.  Running to how she feels (easy runs feel easy, hard runs feel hard) is a simpler version of running to heartrate. 

05/01/2013 at 12:45
Dave - if she is aiming to crack 4 hours then surely her marathon pace is about 9:00mm. If that is the case then today's run was too quick ? Or are you saying that depending on how Rachel's training goes you might be looking at a different target time ? Cheers
05/01/2013 at 12:54

Interesting discussions indeed...I actually think I have the potential to run a fair bit faster than 4 hours...I think it's the preparation that let me down last time and making some silly mistakes. I love the feeling of having done a long run at a 9 min mile or faster, I just don't get the same "glow" after a slower run...That said, I know that it might be detremental once I up the miles...

Mind you, I'm also far too optimistic at times too....which probably doesn't help!!

Dd, we ran an almost identical time! What's your target again?

Cheerful Dave    pirate
05/01/2013 at 13:18

The 4 hour target was based on Rachel's first marathon which by her own admission was poorly executed, and I would agree with her that she can probably run a bit quicker than that.  Today's run was fine, I don't think it was too quick if Rachel was running easily and she did manage to pick the pace up towards the end which indicates that she was running well within herself. 

It's not such a big deal if a 10 miler is too quick anyway, it's more important for the proper long runs later in the schedule.  We'll need to look at a proper target nearer the race.

05/01/2013 at 16:56
Hi Rachel four hours is my target i did 3.59 Edinburgh 2011 but 4.25 in MCR and 4.20 in Chester in 2012, I work away from home spending around four days per week in hotels not always great for training or nutrition but this year as i said previously i am going to try and fit in more mid week runs even if it is on a treadmill in a hotel.
05/01/2013 at 17:06

Dd, you have the knowledge that you've done it before at least! And the weather in Manchester was dreaful last year wasn't it! Probability says, it MUST be going to be better this year!

Cheerful Dave    pirate
05/01/2013 at 18:01
Dd, what was the difference between the two slower ones and the faster one? Did you start at the same pace but fade more, or were they slower throughout? What have you been able to learn from them? (apart from more midweek runs!)
05/01/2013 at 22:05
Dave pace was key - my one sub four marathon I was really careful and stayed between 9 and 10 min for 20 miles leaving enough -just- in the tank to come in under 4hrs. Manchester and Chester last year I ran to fast especially the first 15 miles at times I was checking my pace and felt fine at around 8.20 or so I thought even though my head was telling me 'you will regret this later, !!
I find the advice you are giving to Rachel useful especially about finding your comfortable pace and see what that gives you over 10 miles for example.
05/01/2013 at 22:42

Rachel, just popping in to see how youa re getting on and find a fascinating discussion about pace. I agree that pace is a relative thing.

I cannot do easy runs at 10:00mm. I recognise that I need to run long runs slower than I am capable of running and have really being trying very hard to get mine around 9:30mm. This will hopefully benefit me when I get to marathon day.

But the most interesting thing about this pace for a LSR is that out of all the runs I do during the week it is becoming my least favorite because it is just about putting the miles in and not having that buzz from having had a great run. And in marathon terms it is a great run but the brain does not recognise it as such. Make sense ?

My natural slow pace is probably about 9:20mm.

I asked spoons what pace I should do a recovery run tomorrow morning at and he said conversational pace. Now thats a new one.

I can have a conversation when running at 9:20mm but as I did my 14.5m LSR today in 9:35mm I think I need to do my recovery run in the morning a little slower.

I say run at the pace that you find comfortable and just be aware of the toll on your body of the increased mileage.

 

05/01/2013 at 23:07

H Carl!

I think you're right- long runs are just dull without the reward of the "I've just run fast " buzz. I may well have to learn to love them...

What time are you aiming for out of interest?

Funnily enough I find Sunday recovery runs easiest to do slowly, but maybe that's just because I'm shattered after the long run on Saturday!?

05/01/2013 at 23:21

Rachel - I have set myself a target of 3:45 and I am running Paris on 7th April. I will let you know how my recovery run goes in the morning. I have never really done these before and it should be the slow run of the week as this week has been challenging as I did tempo on Tues, easy on Weds, intervals on Thursday and LSR today.

05/01/2013 at 23:28

Good stuff Carl- will this be your first marathon or are you a seasoned 26.2 miler?

06/01/2013 at 09:06
This will be my 3rd marathon having run VLM for the last 2 years. Actually run / walk would be a better description as I was injured going into the first one and picked up an injury after mile 8 last year.

I have not broke 4 hours before but if I put in the right training I feel that something around 3:45 is possible. I am planning to run a HM first weekend of March to confirm if I am on track.

Just completed my recovery run. 9:48 mm pace. Have never done one of these before. Found the first half mile or so tough to get my legs moving and my brain in gear but then settled into a nice rhythm. Felt every incline though.

Keep up the good work.
06/01/2013 at 16:58

Carl, I'm sure sub 4's achievable, you've certainly made a great start with the training.

I've just got in form a 3 mile recovery run. Ran it without looking at my watch at all, and thoroughly enjoyed it. That said checked watch when back and pace was 9.14 mm. I love those runs when everything feels "right" and this was one

So, week 1 proper of training done. 25 miles in total. Anything I need to doin week 2 Dave? Obviously tomorrow is a rest day, but am wondering whether I should be aiming for a faster interval pace on Tuesday? (which incidentally is going to be a barrel of laughs cos I'll need to go at 6am before work and it will be dark!! Urgh!!!!)

Cheerful Dave    pirate
06/01/2013 at 18:49

Your intervals should really be at whatever you can sustain through the 4 minutes rather than aiming for a specific pace.  I'd expect them to get a bit quicker over the coming weeks but the first ones are always a bit variable, so don't panic if they're not radically quicker than last week.

Take care in the dark too.  Trying to run quickly in the dark is when you're likely to have an accident, so look out for yourself.

06/01/2013 at 22:37
I'm obviously missing something, but why might there only be 5 of the Super 6 left???
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