Sub 3

For anyone trying to crack the 3 in any marathon anywhere in the world

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22/08/2009 at 22:14

Good effort Dull, I've been to Reykjavik and it's not flat. I met two friendly chaps from there at the Halstead marathon who were sporting velcro-attached gels on the back of their shorts -- a neat trick -- looking back at those results, they must have been OSKAR JAKOBSSON and HAVAR SIGURJONSSON, so look out for them in your results. Both a little over 3 hrs then.

I've not been here that much recently but I note PP's splendid 10k form a bit back.

I'm still nursing a nasty blister that came from nowhere on my right foot -- tried a bit of barefoot running round a cricket boundary on the grass today to avoid any rubbing on the side of my foot where it's still angry. At least I know it'll be gone in a few days, so not as worrying as a muscle, tendon, or bone thing -- good luck RWH.

Anyone doing Grunty Fen half next month? I did it last year and it's a fast course.

22/08/2009 at 22:26

Was going to be running Burnham Beeches tomorrow but have a strain and so on the bench instead - good luck to those racing. Funny how 'on the bench' and 'on the beach' differ by only one letter and yet so much?

 I hope it clears up before Nottingham but that's not so much I can do about it other than not run on it and wait and see.

Jools: re Reading and the playoffs way back when, that'll be being the only side to finish second and not go up automatically, then a dry 0-0 home draw against Tranmere to get to Wemberlee having won 3-1 away, before losing 4-3 to Bolton in the final having been two up with a penalty (missed). Half a lifetime away...  

22/08/2009 at 23:12
Nice 5k BEJ. Well worth coming here, it's really well organised and a great course although at around 25k I was almost sent the wrong way by a marshall, and for periods I was running solo not 100% certain I was still on the right forest path.

CW you are right it's not flat here, but it's hardly tough. A Serpentine runner finished second. He's the youngest member of the 100 marathon club. Before the start he told me his PB was 2.38. He ran a 2.37 today and was second!

Neck cramp.... a bit like a crick in the neck. Doesn't cost too much time but not very comfy.

Can't describe how much fun it is here on mara weekend. There are bands playing all over the town and there will be fireworks tonight. Just about to go and see them now.

A bit shocked but even though I never put their name down on my entry form, Serpentine had me as one of their A team. We won the team race by 30 minutes. Bit humbling as I was 4th Serpie home!

23/08/2009 at 00:43

Nice running Dull, sounds like a fun time.

The WC marathon today seemed like a tough one, with the field pretty spread out by the end. I still wonder why on earth they started at 11:45 ensuring it would be as warm as possible by the end. I'm quite pleased for my old teammate who pulled out 25th place and a PB - especially since 6 months ago he had a broken foot. 

23/08/2009 at 09:02
RWH - until you actually know exactly what is wrong I would not even start thinking about marathons. Reason being is with targets you will put pressure on yourself to up the mileage too quickly on your return.

Consider this, for every week of injury you want about 2 weeks to come back so even if you restarted training tomorrow you would be thinking Abingdon + 6 weeks and that is assuming you come back fast.

My 4 weeks of return to running have looked like this
4/9/9/19 and my longest run has been 6.36 miles.

This week I will do between 10-20 miles again and another 6/7 miler.

Of course you could be like Twiggy and be out for 10 minutes and back at 100 mile weeks 2 weeks later but the fact that you are at week 4 and still in daily pain unfortunately says you are more in my boat than his.

Given this I hate a tentative marathon target for April next year but I am not 100% convinced I will make the date.

Sorry for the negativety but I would hate to see you in the state I have been in.

Training wise I will off out on the bike again shortly.

TR - unfortunately people do remember who wins the majors and many people still think the World Champs are just not that important. I know for me the Olympics are everything and I have more interest in the Commonwealth Games than the European Champs.

Hoping for a last hurrah from Freddie today with support from Broad and Swann. Go England(Not something you will see me write everyday)
23/08/2009 at 09:19

Guess you're absolutely right Gobi. Just wanted to have something tentative to aspire towards. If this isn't a stress fracture I'll eat my pair of Radius for charity. I'm 99% certain and it's on the lower front tibia. If I tap the bone I can feel it. Did some reading up and one report says 0% of patients healed tibial SFs in 4 wks, but 50% by 8 wks. Mind you, it's not a great place for a SF because it can cause real healing problems, sometimes with crutches / plaster / surgery etc. Eeek.

It's such a bugger, especially when I was in a fit enough condition to do a sub-3h fairly comfortably a few weeks back. Damn damn damn. Several particularly stupid things have contributed to this:

Not listening to advice on here (I blame me for this)
Not listening to my body, and more specifically deceiving myself that the serious injuries were just the normal niggles (I blame me for this)
Far too much tarmac (I blame Devon for this - footpaths are almost non-existent)
Far too many downhills (I blame Devon / God / Slartibartfast for this, and me for living here)
Getting my shoe strategy all wrong. Didn't replace when I should've done.
18-week schedule. It's too much for me. Should've done a sensible amount of running + 12wks
Not easing back when I should've done.
Being a stupid, arrogant, bugger on here at times esp. towards TR.

Anyway, well done you on getting back at last.

p.s. I'm pretty confident that England will wrap this up nicely. Probably today.

Edited: 23/08/2009 at 09:56
23/08/2009 at 11:13

Morning folks.

lol Gobi. It was a little longer than 10mins

RWH - what Gobi said.

Jools - thank God for the thread pedant That was actually bugging me as I knew it didn't look right!

TR - hope you feel better soon. Great news on the foot.

Nice one on the team prize Dull.

Overdistance long run this morning - 27.5m Was absolutely shattered when I woke up - tight neck and shoulders from lack of sleep and too much diy over the last few days, so started off much more gently than usual. Eased into it slightly as I woke up, averaging 6:55m/m for the first 16m. Then, all of a sudden I seemed to fully wake up, and for no apparent extra effort, averaged 6:41m/m for the last 11.5m. Neither the quickest not the slowest long run I've ever done, but nice to get my first overdistance one done in a while.

Best week's training in a long while, so quite pleased with it. Just shy of 124m off of 7 runs at an average pace of 6:30m/m

23/08/2009 at 11:15
Oh, RWH, nothing wrong with doing all your running on tarmac. Mine is. Much better than footpaths (assuming the footpaths are, as most in this neck of the woods, concrete/slabs). Nice and simple. Recover. Learn (from what you've done). Listen (to your body). Progress.
23/08/2009 at 11:35

TT I think the combination of constant tarmac and downhills is extremely injurious. I want to mix in other surfaces more - e.g. dirt track type footpaths.

Where do you live by the way? Will make a note to avoid it as I'm job-hunting!

Edited: 23/08/2009 at 11:53
23/08/2009 at 11:53

confused by Dulls posts cos he said no-one went sub3 and then 2nd did 2:37

gobi - I agree, like I said folks remember champions. like you said its usaully Olympic champions. I ilke that - you get one chance in 4 years for the Ultimate prize. Some folks arnt championship performers though. Champions are good, kids and some adults need heroes. I guess if soemone is going to hold a WR then the 100m is teh best one to bag.

TT - I agree that tramac is good, most of my running is usually on pavement and thats teh most unforgiving. Off -road is soemtimes harder on yout body (esp a sore foot) than Tarmac. Amazing miles ! Owens goal was like the Owen of old !

RWH - Still none taken, I'm no expert after all - but I know one or 2. Dont enter anything until you are well and running consistently - the pressure of  date wont help.

55M bike /30min run - my foot was sore again. I think its biking (the SPD shoes pedal combo), the run was a weary one today too. BUt I quite enjoyed it today and it was a lovely day for it.

Eldest is playing up an age group in an invitation cricket match at 2pm - so that will be a good test for him. 

2 wickets down - 8 to go. I hope PP wasnt late for teh start.

23/08/2009 at 12:04

We live in a different country in Devon. It's cloudy and drizzling. In London it's clear blue skies and hot. It's been this way for the past fortnight.

I do think it's the downhill poundings that are the biggest problem here - you can feel everything jar and inevitably you tend to lean back, onto the heel, however much you might try and go for it. Not great.

Well done on the bike ride TR and commiserations on the continuing foot niggle. I'm going to be turboing this afternoon.

Looking good at the Oval. I don't think it'll be all easy going. Bit of graft but we should get them steadily knocked over.

Edited: 23/08/2009 at 12:05
23/08/2009 at 12:09

At the risk of sound a bit teenager, awesome long run TippTopp.

I have just got myself very excited after an experimental assessment of my cadence this morning. I've known for a while I tend towards short, frequent strides -- maybe 205/min -- whereas the elites all seem to do more like 180/min. Reading around, nobody ever seems to mention striding too quickly, as joggers have a slow cadence and all the advice is to get it quicker. But timing some of the 1500 m and 10000 m participants in the TV athletics reminded me I might have a 'problem', as they were all indeed at around 180. I'd always put it down to my relatively short legs (29" inside trouser leg, 5'7" tall).

So today I did a 20 mile effort on nice flat grass, experimenting with deliberately extending my stride to a more loping, slow-cadence style. Seemed a bit inconclusive initially though. After 7M I started alternating slow cadence for 1 mile, fast cadence for 1 mile, trying to keep the effort consistent, so that I could do some averaging on the logged data when I got home. I logged 6 miles of each sort to get reasonable statistics. (Ended up doing 20M in a surprisingly quick 2:13 and did an extra 3.3M slow to finish up.) Interestingly, as I got more tired, it started to get more obvious that I was quicker with the 'loping' long stride style, and my 'normal' stride started to feel odd. Loading the data into SportsTracks, the alternation of mile splits was obvious on the graph, and I was indeed quicker with a slower cadence, while my HR showed the effort was very similar though maybe a tad higher with the long stride:

Long strides (typ 189/min) avg 6:32 +/- 0:04 min/M, avg HR 148 +/- 1.5 bpm
Short strides (typ 204/min) avg 6:46 +/- 0:07 min/M, avg HR 150 +/- 1.5 bpm

This is very exciting for me, as it shows a simple change to my running style might have very significant effects. In particular, my "problem" with marathon endurance compared to shorter races might in part be explained by this. Can't wait to do a long time trial with all slow cadence to get an idea of my target MP for Abingdon now.

23/08/2009 at 13:00
Nice LSR's from TT and Charlie (not so slow either!) Interesting stuff on the stride length as well.

For interest on the recovering from injury facts, I had 6 weeks out followed by the following weekly miles,
16 23 30 47 48 53 51 59 71 79 87 90

So thats 12 weeks back and I'm still probably a month away from previous fitness/performance levels. Not the quickest of recoveries.

20 miles down this morning over the Purbecks, looking forward to an afternoon on the couch watching sport ( looking forward to the 5000m final )
23/08/2009 at 13:01
TR - Dull said no one in his age category managed a sub 3, not overall.
23/08/2009 at 13:22

Marigold - just remind me again of your injury? Didn't you think you had a SF only to find out on scanning that it wasn't, or was that someone else? I thought it was you that had that brilliant local newspaper report about running the FLM in some stunning time 'with a broken leg'?

That looks like quite a sensible mileage build up. If I'm lucky I could be gently running again in about 4 weeks' time. One of my big mistakes this time was that in terms of my body stresses I peaked at about week 10 of the programme i.e. much too steep a progression. So taking your sort of build up if, if, I get a running all-clear in about a month's time it would be possible to do a pretty effective marathon in say December or January, but the key thing is to be healed first as OuchOuch has reminded me. Just got to be really careful in the meantime and let it heal before I attempt to run again!

Going to try and do 2 hrs on the turbo shortly. It's important to stay fit and in my case to keep that weight down.

CharlieW - love the technical stuff there. Brilliant stride analysis and LR. And well done TT on your bigun too - forgot to say so earlier. And if you disagree about tarmac that's good for me. I think it also probably didn't help that I clocked big mileages on my shoes. To think of the nonsense I was posting on here ... I'm ashamed!

Edited: 23/08/2009 at 13:25
23/08/2009 at 13:30
RWH - I thought I might have had a pelvic stress fracture but it turned out to be pelvic misalignment combined with multiple muscle strains ( hamstring/adductor) and an inactive glute. Didn't actually have a scan in the end as fizz diagnosed based on the fact my pain kept on moving around all over the place combined with my "wonkyness"

(It was me with the broken leg newspaper story )

23/08/2009 at 13:40

Thought it was you re. the newspaper!!! Classic.

Well although yours was really serious then that's even more reason for me to be circumspect. If mine is indeed tibial stress fracture, as I strongly suspect, it's about as bad a running injury as I think you can get in terms of healing time?

Well done for getting back - it's people like you that keep the benchers going. I'm slightly surprised that I'm not more gutted than I actually am. I put soooooooo much effort in, only to see it smashed. I honestly think it's because I know I've learned lessons and so I can return. In truth though I had also got to the point where I wasn't enjoying my running. 100mpw @ 10 weeks out from a race is just too much for me. I've learned this the hard way!

23/08/2009 at 14:00

Nice overdistance run TT and long runs Charlie and Marigold.

RWH - a gentle return when you're over the sf and a listen to your body approach will see you breaking 3 hours in your next marathon.

20.6 miles on lovely packed dirt trail.  Can't beat that surface for running on, far kinder than any other surface apart from flat grass like a cricket pitch.

Women's marathon was good to watch, much better viewing than the men's I think.  Maybe it's because a far larger group of different countries were in the mix rather than a group of Kenyans and Ethopians.

23/08/2009 at 14:06
Afternoon all.
Really bad day at the office (Burnham Beeches half). Went off pretty steadily (Bristol is in 2 weeks so was never planing to cane it) and at HW was bang on 7m/m according to Garmin; pretty much where I wanted to be and feeling strong (although I'd felt rough for the first 3 miles until the water station, which I guess was a warning). Fairly shortly after this I started to feel cold and shivery, which I'm assuming was overheating because one thing it wasn't at all today was cold! Never had shivers/cold that bad before in a race and was seriously contemplating a DNF, but thought about it for so long that I ended up finishing in 1.35.xx (sorry, thread pace police). Worst HM time for 3/4 years and worst positive split in a HM ever.
Oh well, I guess I know why, and just have to hope that I can pull things together a bit better in a fortnight. RB - if the offer of a training partner for a session in Glasgow next week is still on, a confidence restoring tempo run at about 6.40m/m (best I can really hope for at Bristol on recent training/races that have gone ok...) that would be much appreciated. Will mail/text you once in Glasgow and have discussed with sister.
23/08/2009 at 14:10
PS: sorry didn't stay around to chat, except to Selbs briefly, but was feeling sh!te and grumpy. Very nearly called my parents in tears to demand to be picked up but managed to jog v slowly to the station and make my own way home. Amazing how we regress when staying with parents, no?!
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