For anyone trying to crack the 3 in any marathon anywhere in the world
TR, Thanks for the advice, I'm keen to get this right. As I remember the P&D 55-70 called for 14m @ MP a week earlier than I did it, so, you're right, I did a little extra and a week too close, but I was doing 'flexible', and thought it'd be 'reet. The tough thing is calculating MP, when I don't have prior marathon experience to base it on. I've used MacMillan race pace calculator (with a margin for my inexperience). Based on my 5K times (Parkruns - I think I could run harder) it says I should be capable of 2:50:31, 6.31m/m pace. All the training paces look about right for my effort at each level, and I'm confident I could do the other races at the times listed. Still, it's a big gap between 5K and Marathon.
So, if I have hit some parts of training too hard, lack the experience at Marathon distance, Liverpool is hilly/windy, etc, I'm willing to be a bit humble and respect that 2:59:xx would be great for my second marathon. But are you saying that you think, based on my recent MP 15-miler, that I should really aim at faster than 6:50m/m as my pace on the day?
I'm aware I have rambled on much to much already on this venerable (and patient) thread, but in case anyone's interested, here's a link to said training run. Thanks again TR, Joolska, PhilPub and all for warm welcome & luck!!http://runkeeper.com/user/yorkshireandy/activity/118452902
Good luck for Berlin ZaTTu, and Bristol Joolska... I used to live down that way, beautiful area, nicely sheltered on the Portway, at least!
CT - if you ran 15 at 6:40 in training, then you can probably run faster on marathon day. Your training milage and long runs sounds fine. Dont aim 2:59, you might cramp up or need a pit stop and it'd be no sub3. You may also never be this fit again. Run an easy pace/rythmn in the first 1/2 and see how you feel, keep an eye on the watch but dont get bent out of shape about it. Anyhwere around 6:40s should feel easy. You want to do the first 1/2 asleep, focussing on fuelling etc. Again it probably comes down to how much you want it in the last hour.
CT.. which club do you run for? I work in York so know the area well, done the York Parkrun a few times.
Padams.. great achievement coming 4th, looking forward to the fine detail.
Charlie in 'niggle free' run shock!
All the best & good luck to Dachs & TT, hope you fly round!
Still stranded on the east side of town here. Dachs' suggestion to swim across the river as triathlon practice was tempting, don't think I would squeeze under the bridge though!..
7m fartlek done around wet fields & country lanes today.
Wardi, I've been meaning to go along to the Knavesmire Harriers for ages now, but between family, work and marathon training (I have a work mate I run with weekly), I haven't felt I could go along enough to feel like a regular, and I'd want to be part of the community there once I join.
I've really enjoyed the Parkruns here - done 3 I think in the last few months. I hear the racecourse is flooded out at the minute tho, so it remains to be seen whether I'll be there on Saturday to do my scheduled 'tune-up race'! You planning on going if it's on?
CT - sounds like MP is too easy, follow TR's advice and you'll do very well.
Good luck to the Berlin duo, give the course a good kicking from me.
Congrats to Marders, I believe he's almost British ;-)
Jools - May see you sunday, good luck you deserve a good one.
Did a few reps up and down the portway last night, legs freshening up nicely, just need to stay clear of the kids and their lurgy..
Best of luck to the Berliners and Bristolers this weekend, and anyone else who happens to be racing.
First off, good luck to everyone racing this weekend! I'm going to jump right in here and see if anyone can help out. I'm thinking of going for a marathon in May next year and I think sub 3 should be doable. I do triathlons and my running is pretty good so this year i've been focused on swimming and cycling and i've only been running at most twice per week up to 10k. I did a half marathon last week pretty comfortably in 1:17:43, 10k in 34:24 and 5k in 16:40. The numbers suggest i should be okay for sub 3 but i need to run more. I'm planning on upping my running to 3 times per week (not a lot i know). 1 interval, 1 tempo and 1 long. I also want my 5k and 10k times to improve through this training. Could anybody suggest changes to my plan below? I'm keeping up the swimming and cycling so 3 runs a week is probably my limit.
I'm thinking intervals will be repeats of 400m - 1500m or hill reps, tempo would be about 8 miles at 6-6:30min/ml and a long run of about 10-15ml at around 7:30/ml. On top of that would be 3 similar bike sessions and 3-5 swims per week. I know the long run could be longer and probably slower.. is that a big issue? I'm giving priority to running over the next few months so any hard bike or swim sessions will be replaced with an easy session if I need a break.
Basic aims are to do a 16min 5k, 33:30min 10k and finish off with a 2:45ish marathon in May. Kidding myself or reasonable? A rule of thumb i was told is double your half marathon + 15 minutes. That gives me about 2:50 but I know i'm a long way from there right now.
I think I've wandered back in here into an alternative reality where CW is in complete health.
Congrats to padams, great result and it sounds like you enjoyed yourself out there.
Good luck to zattu & others Berlin-bound. My club is sending a few over, including several in the 2:30 to 2:45 range, so I'm looking forward to tracking a few at the weekend.
B_K, your times do suggest a bias towards the shorter stuff right now. If you can build up endurance to match, something well inside 2:45 should be possible, there are a few in here who run faster than that but can't match your 5k time. Plan looks OK to me, except that you'll want to get some of those long runs up to 20+ miles or you'll die on your feet in the marathon. Not something anyone enjoys, we've all been there! Mixing in biking & swimming isn't a big deal.
B_K - I'll be attempting sub 2:45 in a month off a similar HM time but my 5k and 10k's are a fair bit behind yours (although in need of a spanking at some point!). Your running plan seems very light when looked at from a single discipline background, but has obviously served you well so far. As per CD's advice, I think you need to plan 5-10 runs in the 20+ range.
(Scurries off to find previously-undetected niggle...)
I reckon you can still run cross that bridge Wardi, the police will never catch you :- )
chrono -- as a cautionary tale, I ran 20M @ 6:45/M in training before my first sub-3 marathon -- but was dying in the race in the last few miles, and hit 3:00:00 pretty much on the nail. (Might not really have been sub-3 in fact.) So to echo what the others have said, don't aim to run fast early and then slow down -- but yes by all means aim to have a few mins spare as insurance. The first few miles should feel like a warm-up jog.
B_K -- you've got some great times off little training -- I'm in a similar ball-park and did 2:42.5 in London. I bet with more running training you'll do something stellar, and certainly manage sub-2:45 by the spring -- but again I'd echo the others and say that doing some proper long runs (20+M, my own bias being to do 26 once or twice) is key. Each year most of us run past scores of tortured souls in the last few miles at VLM who set off at a cracking pace but blew up for lack of endurance (or over-ambitious pacing, same thing really), so it's that you need to develop and test.
Thanks for the responses guys. Some good advice there and the main thing is, as I expected, that i need to get the distance of my runs up. I think i'm better off starting low and ramping up fairly quickly as i get into running a bit more regularly. I assume you don't want any aches after the longer runs? It should be fairly easy right? I know if I went beyond 8 miles now even at an easy enough pace i'd feel it the next day.
I'll change my plan to get up to 20 miles rather than 15 miles. What about tempo runs? I'd like to have these a lot shorter than race distance and as fast or a little faster than race pace. Working from 5 miles up to about 12 miles. I want to avoid getting too focused on high mileage and not improving my times over the shorter distances.
Last triathlon of the year is tomorrow so I can get stuck into this plan pretty soon!
Don't ramp up too quickly whatever you do. I can't speak for others, but I still know about it the day after a 20 mile run. Less than I used to, for sure, and these days I tend to save a bike session for the day after.
Tempo runs for me tend to be anything from 5 to 10 miles, but others can give better advice on pace - I rarely get to marathon race pace in training, other than during intervals.
CharlieW, thanks - that's exactly the kind of tale I'm interested in hearing right now - to hopefully learn enough from others who have been there before me to not miss out on the day! What's your diagnosis of what happened in that marathon? Sounds like you were in a similar place to me for fitness at the time, if not better - and to just scrape in - !
What makes breaking sub-3 so much harder than 6:45 for 18 or 20 in training? Mental energy loss on the excitement of the big day vs. relaxed training routes we know? Fuelling? (Were you taking gels/drinks? I plan on fuelling 250 cal/hour from 3 miles) The difference in energy systems when passing the 20 mile point?
One good thing about Liverpool is that the last big hill is at 18 miles, and after 23 it's all downhill - with one big downhill to help!
Best of luck TT/Dachs. Do yourselves proud
it wont last, CW will be injured again by Sunday !
BKins - I know too well the quad pain that goes with low mileage/3 runs a week marathon campaigns. You can blag 1/2's off that sort of training you posted, but marathons need more. You also have more than enough leg speed to run well under 3hrs, it'll be running endurance and muscular endurance that will limit you. I'd plan for 6 to 8 weeks of more specific marathon prep before the taper, maybe with a midweek MLR included up to 10M at MP. None meant, but how fast you can run 400m to 1M reps and tempo runs count for diddly squat when the wheels come off at 18M and your quads are on fire through lack of impact miles. I'll be doing swim, bike and run too, but will hope for a few marathon specific runs in the last block.
All the best to the Bristols !
come on Ode, tell em what you were doing last SUnday !
Safely ensconced in my apartment after a very long day. I was up at 4:40am, and by the time I got through the whole travelling thing (including straight to the expo from the plane) and finally got into the apartment I'd been awake and on my feet for nearly 11 hours. The whole thing was made more manageable by the fact that I'd pre-planned today as a rest day. I figured walking several miles, etc, would more than match squeezing in a hurried 30-40min jog as I did last year.
Cheers for all the good wishes. Fingers crossed I can execute to plan Conditions today seem pretty good, so as long as that holds for the race I'll be happy.
Time for a bit of dinner and a few movies now methinks
Chrono - What's your diagnosis of what happened in that marathon?Good question, I never did a proper post-mortem. I certainly hadn't done enough long runs, and also I went too fast because it felt really easy -- I probably did the first part at sub-2:50 pace and wondered why nobody else was trying. It was cold and very windy, though flat. I got very thirsty because it was a small affair with a fuelling station (plastic cups) once per 5M lap, and it was a bit busy on my last time through, so stupidly I "saved time" by skipping it., and didn't have much before that. I can't remember what I did nutrition-wise. Overall, I probably got utterly defuelled in the legs by burning all my carbs in the first 20M by going too quickly.
The idea on nutirition (as expressed by Noakes in the Lore of Running) is not so much to fuel your legs -- it's too late to significantly top up your muscle glycogen -- but to keep your blood sugar propped up so you don't get hypoglycaemic. A lot of people here don't bother with too many gels now, and generally use them later in the race, but no harm if you are comfortable with them.
But the long runs in training get your legs used, it seems, to burning a higher proportion of fat. If they are only accustomed to burning carbs, that will surely be exhausted with miles still to go, with a nasty drop in pace (and comfort) resulting. If you're burning more fat from the outset, that will conserve some carbs for later and you shouldn't get such a shock.
TT - Good luck mate......may the marathon gods be with you
CharlieW, brilliant that you pulled off the 'sub-/on-the-dot-3' considering all those disadvantages. I'm seeing more clearly after reading up a bit that the best school for marathons is hard experience (of course!), which makes me wish I hadn't put all my eggs in one marathon basket. But, there ya go.
I've read quite a bit of Noakes, but didn't pick up on the point about gels not fuelling the legs in particular during the race, rather avoiding hypoglycaemia - which would affect - concentration? Neuromuscular control? In the last marathon I recall going a bit faint before I got 'cramps'. In retrospect, hypoglycaemia seems like it was the issue, running too hard on the first half.
Perhaps I'll go easy on the gels, then. I've been training with them on my MP runs, usually taking an 80-cal gel every 20 mins (as directed on packet) from 40 mins or sometimes later, and my system seems fine with them at MP and slightly faster. They hand the suckers out at Liverpool at miles 15, 18 and 21, but I was planning on carrying extra. That's 4 or 5 gels, tho, which seemed like a bit of a faff.
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