Sub 3

For anyone trying to crack the 3 in any marathon anywhere in the world

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16/10/2012 at 08:00

Al_P: nice half, not what you were hoping for originally perhaps but sounds pleasing nonetheless. Very interested in your NB MRC1600s by the way -- I'm too greedy for lightness for my own good, and got an odd pattern of blood blisters on my outer toes in my Adizero Hagio on Sunday. Something just as light with more cushioning sounds promising.

A.W: welcome! That's a huge chunk off your HM PB, and definitely puts you in the right ball-park for a sub-3 marathon. With so long ago until April I wouldn't worry specifically, but it never hurts to get some moderately long runs in now to gradually accustom yourself to the longer distance. But just enjoy your recent fitness with some more races and PBs.

CC2 -- agonising! I got a bit like that in Draycote Water in 2009 (paper cups every 5M loop and I skipped the last one through impatience). If it was you who previously had the impressive string of negative splits, at least you can draw the comfort that you were doing the right thing with those rather than allowing a more "normal" positive split.

MichaelG -- that half sounds ridiculous :- )

About to try a little jog round the park -- I am DOMSd, but no more than after some of my training runs in the past few weeks when I really was attempting training I wasn't fit enough for, impatiently. I really think I got my calves adjusted for speed as a "just in time" delivery for the GER, so I'll keep that kind of taper for next time (much the same as I've done before marathons). The GER was a 27 sec negative split for me and my best ever WAGA/points result -- so like CC2 it reinforces my experience that my best races are those that are comfortable and accelerating, not those where I'm killing myself and blowing up towards the end... now if only I could apply that at VLM!

PS I signed up to the champs entry too. I got an on-screen message saying I'd hear back in 7 days, but no email as such (yet).

16/10/2012 at 10:14

A.W - I'd say you were right on the cusp with your PB's and current mileage.  A good day with things falling right would see you around the 2.59 mark.  So I'd look to build a bit of a buffer.

I agree with ST about parkruns. Since I started doing them reasonably regularly (even building them into a longer run), my parkrun time came down by about a minute, and my marathon time by 17 mins.  A midweek longer run plus keeping your weekend long run to 22/23 miles will always do you well.

I might be alone, but other than the odd 20 mile race, I think a 20 mile run is a waste of time for marathon runners.  Too long for a medium run, and too short for a long run.  You might as well add a couple of miles to get the real benefit and experience of what happens at that point, otherwise you have to start all over again at zero. The best time to do a 22 mile run is when you've already got 20 in the bag.

16/10/2012 at 10:40

Here I was thinking I was special and then LS21 goes and offers the executive suite at LS21 Towers to an audience of nearly *3 million!  That's ok though as I see there's a new player in the market, The Grand Wardi, who offer a state of the art TV service along with some amazing views.  Pretty sure I won't be Brass Monkeying so I wish you both good luck in your battle to become the Yorkshire Hotelier of the year (of the sub 3 thread).

Looks like a heap of new folks on here which is what it's all about.  Make sure you stick around as there are plenty on here who have taken things well past the sub 3 marker who can offer all sorts of wonderful advice.  Great to see some recent first time sub 3s too, onwards and upwards.

I've only managed a quick skim back but I see zaTTu had a solid run in Berlin.  Nevermind about missing the sub 230 as based on where you came from I'm sure you'll smash it next time round, and besides, wouldn't you rather a pb of several minutes vs seconds?  Good to see Padams getting it done in his GB kit on the world stage.  If you have no luck with a bike sponsor then as a last resort I'm sure Boris/Barclays could hook you up with one of the hundreds of speedy bikes around London.  Also pleased to see that DanA is back on the wagon.  Next stop has to be one of those fancy silver Xempo tops.

Seems there were a few at the GER on Sunday.  Great to break the sub 70 RJ and a cracking 74 from CharlieW.  Fishcake extraordinaire DFC was also there and must have been just in front of you RJ but you probably didn't see him as he's quite tiny.  Legend has it that after squeezing himself into an overhead luggage compartment on a bus he went on to become the world "shut yourself in a small black bag" champion.  Afterwards, it is reported that he suffered from a briefcase of claustrophobia.

Got the IAU World 50km Trophy in Italy on Saturday.  I'm looking forward to drafting Marigold for 49.9km before unleashing my lightening kick to finish with a sub 20s last 100m.  The weather looks a bit warm though so it might be best to be out in front to benefit from any cooling effect.  My evil plan is to set the pace early on with a 5 minute mile and then ease back to 5:20ish.  That way, I hope any Africans will go with the pace (and therefore settle in at that pace as it always feels easy at the start!) and try to maintain before crashing and burning after 35km.  Sounds feasible but whether I take the risk is another story...

* views since thread started

Edited: 16/10/2012 at 10:49
16/10/2012 at 12:50

In the 'best place to stay' contest I forgot to mention that I also live a mere 80 yards from a top notch pizza/kebab takeaway and there are no less than 5 pubs within a 200 yard radius.

I see DFC has been up to his old adventures - 'a briefcase of claustrophobia'  is a very serious condition, I doubt a Doctor could get a handle on it. 

Best of luck to you both at the 50k, may the best (English) man win!

DanA.. interesting thoughts on the long run.  I will stick to the circa 13m midweeker, but come the next marathon campaign I can see me come Sundays informing Mrs Wardi that 'I am just going outside and may be some time'. 

MG.. good to hear from you again, brave effort in the half and the XC.  If in the last 3 years you have been old, fat & injured don't underestimate the road back.  I've had a similarly rough stop/start patch in the last 3 years and it is coming back slowly - more slowly than I would like obviously!

CC2.. sorry the marathon didn't go as well as you hoped, you deserved better.  3:09 is still a thoroughly decent rescue attempt.

4.2m this morning, another 6-7m with the club later.

Edited: 16/10/2012 at 12:51
16/10/2012 at 13:01

CC2 - sorry to hear it didn't go to plan, but at least you know on a better day there's loads more to come. What's next for you?

Al_P - cheers for the heads-up. I entered last night

A.W. - the more mileage you can handle and absorb the better your end result will be. I guess the benefit of the parkrun is that you can use it as a tempo just as easily as a flat-out effort. I'd agree too on getting both your long run and medium long run up. For Berlin most of my long runs were in the 20m range (deliberately) which I didn't like, but it was for reasons of absorption. I normally aim for 23m as a minimum and that's what I'll be looking at this time around. The more double figure runs you do the better in my book, but in my opinion you should really have at least one (other than your long) at 14m+. At the end of the day though it's really a case of finding what works for you rather than following what everybody else says. As you can see you've had several different opinions already as they're all based on our own experiences.

Hey MG. Good to see the return continues!

Cheers marders. I'd have rathered the few seconds now and a pb of several minutes next time around

Amazing that an 8m jog yesterday left my legs quite achy this morning. I suspect that the few extra kgs gained during my fortnight off may be partially responsible!
Jogging a 6/6 double today and will keep jogging for the next few days. Hopefully I may manage to go a little faster than a jog at some stage later in the week!

16/10/2012 at 16:43

Thanks for the welcome and comments everyone. One of the things I love about the forum is the different approaches and ideas to training from one person to the next, and like ZaTTu says its just finding what works for you. 

Dan A & ZaTTu - your long run ideas are something I have been thinking about a bit and definitely wanted to take on in the build up to my next marathon. Only really gone up to 20 (4 or 5) with the occasional 21 or 22 previously and in every race so far have faded badly in the last 4 or 5 miles.

I think as suggested by a few of you some 5k's will be a good idea, with the odd 10k thrown in too, it can't hurt to get a bit quicker! I'll keep the volume of mileage and longer runs going too. That should keep me going until the more specific marathon stuff starts!

No running for me the last couple of days as feeling a little too tired and tight after Sundays HM, just a massage and some stretching. Hopefully get out for an easy run tomorrow!!

16/10/2012 at 19:49
Wardi wrote (see)

 'a briefcase of claustrophobia'  is a very serious condition, I doubt a Doctor could get a handle on it. 

The police investigated, it was an open and shut case.

CC2 - Sounds like a tough day. I've only had one dehydration affected race and it's horrible watching the time slip away. Well done on posting a very respectable time nontheless.

Shin update - After hobbling around on Sunday afternoon thinking the worst, my shin was almost completely better yesterday and I can't feel it at all today. I'll give it another couple of days before a test run, but feeling pretty positive now. I think I either limited the damage by taking swift and decisive action or was being a wuss ... possibly both.

16/10/2012 at 20:09

Wardi (and Tom) - one of the reasons for lurking was to follow your progress through not unrelated challenges. I guess one of the issues is just re-adjusting expectations - Tom wrote a really good post on this, but it is very difficult. While I'm long term injured I think I would be happy just to run 3 miles slowly and regularly and build up gradually - but with me that phase / accomodation only lasts about 10 days before the competitive juices start circulating again...with common consequences.

16/10/2012 at 20:18

Sounds like a monster weekend of racing.

Some big half marathon milestones broken - Charlie with the 75 (see?  I said it would be easy...), and RJ with the 70.  It must be a sensational feeling to break 70, that's a real quality time.  Sounds like things are boding well for TR for the sub-80 too.

Al_P, I would assume that your clubmate was simply afraid of your challenge so sloped off to Cardiff.  So an earned championship in my book .  Are you backing out of a 75 bid at Gosport then?  I may have to as well, tbh (see below).

Good work by the marathoners too.  A 53 minute PB for chrono must be some kind of record.  And I think it's only fair for CC2 to find out what a positive split feels like once, just so she can fully appreciate her negative splits again.

Good running by Dan A, Wardi (a minute is progress in anyone's book) and BKins

Good to hear things are looking up for Andy's shin.

I'm still dealing with a foot niggle.  It felt like the foot was pretty much fine again yesterday, so I risked a run.  Pretty much immediately got a dull achey pain in the top mid of the foot, which then seemed to spread to various parts of the foot, and remained all the way round.  So will back off again, and probably ditch any plans of the 10 mile race at the weekend.  Lesson for next time - don't enter races within a month after a marathon...

16/10/2012 at 20:34
Dachs wrote (see)

Lesson for next time - don't enter races within a month after a marathon...

I hope that's not set in stone. I have not one, but two XC races this coming weekend. 

16/10/2012 at 21:16

My VLM Champs application was successful. Just paid up. 

16/10/2012 at 22:06
CC - forgot to say, we'll done for getting through what sounded like a difficult race in Munich, we all pray for a good day weather wise, but it doesn't always happen case in point, a club mate without a VLM spot did Milton Keynes a week later thn London this year. We'd training together and were at a very similar level, but due to the weather (fecking awful at MK) he did 2:47 and I did 2:43 at London, he was gutted and hasn't really got over the disappointment yet.... Your VLM confirmation was quick, I've hear nowt back yet!

Dachs - I'm game for a sub 75 attempt at Gosport if you are. Our PBs are pretty close (both on lumpy courses too I believe), but I think it's going to be do or die approach! As I said earlier going to use GSR to hopefully gauge whether I'm being realistic or wildly hopefully...

On the subject of longer mid week runs, one of the best sessions I did was 15-16 ml at a decent pace (av 6:30ish overall) on Weds night with either 3x1ml HM/10ml pace or a longer MP stretch (up to 8ml I think).

Like CW I'm currently a bit DOMS'd in my calves from Sunday's race, also got the cold that mrs al p & al p jnr have had, hopefully both will clear up enough to get out for a few miles tomorrow
16/10/2012 at 22:13
CC - Out of interest what result proof did you use for your Champs entry? I went to the VLM results search, put my name in and then pasted the link from the search results page into my entry (I think it's specific to the search criteria entered). Afterwards I thought it might have been better to find the VLM results on powerof10 and use that instead, have to wait and see what they say now....
17/10/2012 at 07:46

Andy D - good news, and another day or two off sounds like a good plan just to make sure.

CC2 - XC races don't count, they're just hard tempo runs (although you probably wouldn't want to be doing that soon after a marathon either!). Just take it easy and enjoy it.

16M for me last night (mainly on grass, almost every mile 6:5x or 7:0x) rather than the usual track session because:
- XC at the weekend so won't be able to fit in a long run
- XC at the weekend so that counts as my "fast" running for the week
- calves are feeling a bit sore recently, and a long slow run seems to do no damage whereas 400m reps trash them.

Feel like my running endurance is coming back. It felt like I could maintain 7s forever last night (obviously I couldn't have done though!), whereas a couple of weeks ago I wanted to stop after 16M at a slower pace. 

17/10/2012 at 12:23

Just got my Accepted E-mail through!


And so it begins.....................................................

17/10/2012 at 15:22

That sounds promising on the endurance front Padams. I sometimes, especially earlier in cycles, find jogging more tiring than an easy run, possibly because of the number of extra foot strikes per mile = more impact.

Marigold and marders - good luck both of you for Saturday.

A 12m jog this afternoon. Legs still achy, but improving. Makes 32 slow miles so far in 3 days. As I only run 6 days I'd expect a total of 60-70-ish for this week, which is not too shabby a way to start back. Also had my London entry confirmed, which makes it the earliest I've ever entered it (so does that mean I have more of a chance of making the startline in one piece? ).

17/10/2012 at 16:31

Haven't seen this covered before on this thread and I'm curious. What's the general view on alcohol intake for such serious and successful runners as those on this thread?

Are you all generally in the "my body is a temple, I only drink yogi tea" camp, or do sub 3 hour marathoners still like to imbibe?

Left to my own devices and with nothing to train for, I'd typically have 8-10 pints  (or equivalent thereof) over the course of a week. When training for a marathon, I cut that back to 3-4 pints a week. I know people that insist this means I don't take my training seriously, but since I run for fun and am never likely to qualify for the Olympics, I don't care.

If you don't mind sharing, what's your average weekly booze intake?


Edited: 17/10/2012 at 16:32
Cheerful Dave    pirate
17/10/2012 at 16:40

Calling PP, calling PP....

Cheerful Dave    pirate
17/10/2012 at 16:46

I doubt there's many on here that cut out alcohol completely, except maybe a bit before an A race.  I don't drink much these days anyway, maybe 3-4 pints a week on average but I wouldn't cut back just because I've got a marathon in a few weeks.

17/10/2012 at 18:33

Al-P - it was nice to meet you and share a few miles, I'm pleased that I had enough puff to be able to talk back.

CC - I looke dup your result and guessed soemthing must have gone wrong cos you are usually the "mail man" (just like Karl Malone !), sorry to hear that. I carry a bottle in my 1/2 IMs so I dont have to use plastic cups, and would have no problem doing the same in a marathon, but some dont like holding things whilst they run.

CW - pretty sore legs here too but did 6M monday and 5 and 6 y'day as I had some pretty amazing roads to run on near Holyhead.

Padams - XC season already !

I reckon my aerobic system is stronger than my running legs nowadays, but thats probably as I dont race enough, as for 5Ks I only ever do the odd summer 5k, and did no build up races at all for VLM this year. Re the beer I dont have any for a few days before an A race, but thats about the only time I wouldnt. 


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