Sub 3

For anyone trying to crack the 3 in any marathon anywhere in the world

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19/12/2012 at 08:21

Nervous nerys here -- after a remarkably long injury-free period, I've got a bit of a niggle back on the inside of my lower R leg -- which I self-diagnosed as the all-encompassing medial tibial stress syndrome last time (had the same thing before VLM this year). I've no race plans except county XC champs on 6 Jan and a possible parkrun, so I'm having a few consecutive days off to encourage some bone deposition, and just scoffed some fruit yoghurt. Encouragingly, given my hopeless self-control already in the face of mince pie temptation, eating plenty of calories is suggested... (and I have been rather light recently, so maybe that could have contributed to it being a bit iffy, though also making me as fast as poss).

On the other hand I have logged 1938 miles so far this year, so all else being normal I'd expect to reach 2000 for the first time. Not a good reason to muck about with a dicky leg though.

19/12/2012 at 08:33

TR - I was referring to "20M is a long way this far out". I think doing 20m easy this far out is a good thing.

NtS - I believe you have to tailor make your training to your own ability/needs with the main focus on maximising your strengths and a minimal focus on your weaknesses. I'd have thought double HM + 10 should be a good aim, but maybe using a 20m race as a long effort might give you a better indication?

Fingers crossed it's nothing CW. The rest won't do you any harm though, and it's a good time for it

19/12/2012 at 08:43

Hope it's not a stress fracture/syndrome, CW.  I like the idea of mince pies as injury recovery!

5M easy for me this morning.

TR
19/12/2012 at 09:02

marmite - that has to be Gobi oclock given it was a Sunday.

Cw - bone deposition !

TT - I understand now. If YD does a 20 this Sunday and theres still 16 or 17 weeks I think that a long way for a novice, might be wrong but I would expect him to run his 20s a bit fast given that he's used to shorter distances. He could end up doing 15ish 20s if he keeps doing them from now on, so  I would rather see him do 8 to 10 as a newbie and stick to long runs of 16 to 18 until the end of January. But you know what you are talking about better than me.

90min turbo and an MTB commute bagged.

19/12/2012 at 09:10

CW - Sounds like it's a broken leg, you better get to hospital before it falls off.

Nice to see Marmite popping in.

Dan - thats sounds brilliant.

Old No7 - Solid intervals.

17 yesterday and 5 this morning, legs seem to be enjoying the increase in mileage.

 

19/12/2012 at 10:33

Fingers crossed Andy D, do you have a target time in mind?

Good session Old No7, especially with the short recoveries.

CW – I had to google bone deposition, I was thinking it was something to do with witness testimony! Too many American Courtroom drams watched I think. Anyway, I hope it’s not as nasty as it sounds because it sounds horrid.

Good work on the early miles Jules and SL

Looks like I have kicked off a debate, thanks for the concern TR, and I will heed your advice.
A bit of background, I have run 20s before in Half Mara build up, so they are nothing new and at this stage they are not going to be happening every week, as I have a few races and shorter long runs planned over the next few weeks. This Sunday, I have invited club mates to tag along at 8 min per mile pace, so if any turn up I cant go and turn the run into a burn up. If no one does turn up I will still keep the pace slow. At this stage its all about time on feet and fat burning.  

TR
19/12/2012 at 10:48

YD - sounds like you have it all under control then. 20s in 1/2 mara build up is nuts ! I do long runs of about 12M max when I have no marathon.

looks like SL is back to it nicely

19/12/2012 at 10:52

CW - Good luck with the, er, bone deposition.  Are purple Quality Street any good for that?!

YD - All looks sensible enough to me.  On the other hand we've got 5 @ MP planned for the end of our 20 on Saturday!  Yesterday I took a long look at my training/racing calendar for Jan - March and for one reason or another there are very few weekends where I would want to try and fit in many "hard" long runs, so in a way I'm glad I've started with the 20s as early as I have.  It also means that my main "MP" efforts will continue to be the Thursday evening semi-long runs, which is what I'm used to doing previously so that's OK.

19/12/2012 at 11:36

PP - I want to feel comfortable with the 20+ milers before I start adding in the harder efforts later on, but there is that balancing act of me being a first timer and not burning out, as TR is warning against.
I have been tinkering with the plan I put up on the other thread. Like you, early on in the campaign I will be doing decent stints at MP as part of my midweek medium long run, at some point down the line this will stop and the MP efforts will start appearing in the long runs, the midweek medium longs will then become easy runs to support the tougher long weekend runs.
So, decent length MP efforts will be a mainstay throughout, but will appear in different runs depending on what stage I am at.

19/12/2012 at 11:41

Jools - sorry, 'fraid not.

CW - sounds like classic case of runners' paranoia to me.  Couple of days and you'll be right as rain.

Flight to Norway is afternoon on Jan 1st.  Just remembered I've entered some off road 10k up and down Box Hill in the morning.  That'll blow away the cobwebs.

Never been a fan of early morning running.  Annoys me that races are always so early on Sundays so as to cause minimum disruption to the poor beleaguered motorist.  I'm suprised they don't set us off at 3am to keep us out the way.  I have done races that last from Friday to Sunday, so technically I've run at every time of the day.

19/12/2012 at 12:16

PP "Are purple Quality Street any good for that" -- yes, but I'm not going to let on because they're my favourite too, hands off!

My let is just a bit jippy, nothing serious -- just don't want to aggravate it at this point, as it did give me some grief in a similar way previously.

On the 20s, I quite like doing one every once in a while out of marathon training just to dong my endurance bell -- every month or two say -- so my body retains some memory of what endurance is about, and doesn't have to re-learn from scratch. I have absolutely no evidence to point to that it's a good idea though.

Dan "Annoys me that races are always so early on Sundays" -- hear hear; actually early suits me for getting back to the family without too much disruption, but I'd much rather they were on Saturday so that the rest of the weekend can be spent eating and drinking excessively in celebration, Sunday is there to recover, and there's some hope of public transport being useful to get to the thing in the first place. But even off-road races tend to be on Sundays, when traffic closures aren't an issue... (with the notable exception of parkruns of course, and track meets).

A.W
19/12/2012 at 14:36

Look after that leg CW, I'm in the same boat as most others on the 20's. Even when not training for a marathon I like to drop the odd one in just to keep myself knowing how they feel.

A.W
19/12/2012 at 18:55
CW - liking the attitude towards eating and drinking.

YD - also thinking of this Ribble 10k, but more likely to do the one in Leyland on Boxing Day.

NtS - yeah, that Coe v Ovett thing is interesting. However, it's possible that, to a degree it didn't matter what training they were doing 6 months out. No doubt Ovett was doing a lot of unnecessary miles and Coe a lot of unnecessary speed work. (What was necessary, was that they were doing something).
I wonder how Ovett trained at the sharp end. I'd be surprised if he was still doing 100 mpw eight weeks out from the Olympics. I'll bet he was training fast like Coe.
19/12/2012 at 19:21

Training heading west. Cold still hanging on and the cookie monster has been on my shoulder all day work and every time I passed a HUGE tin of biscuits at work. The cookie monster made me get at least 2 biscuits!

Also remembered that the world is supposed to be ending tomorrow. So I am ending a  3 week spell of abstaining and entering into the Christmas spirit and eyeing up some lovely bottles of rioja that were gifted to me today

If all goes well and the world does not end. I will do back to back runs as penance on Friday and Saturday  

19/12/2012 at 19:23
In fact, more on Coe v Ovett and training, and the notion that each athlete must have a tailored training plan. To a degree, that may be true. An athlete that has been injured all winter would need different training. Also, an athlete who is a bit faster is more likely to enter 5k races, so would need slightly different training.
However, two similar uninjured runners coming into a marathon, if you've done enough long stuff at a decent pace, done the hills, done the fast stuff at the end I'd be surprised if one training plan will out do another. We are all muscle fibres, made of the same molecules, and we all have limits.

I'd be very interested to see the history of Paula Radcliffe's training. In 2003 or whenever it was, she appears to have hit on a magic formula which she never again used, or that no one ever copied. A formula that Canova for all his superior knowledge has never come close too. Or is it that she just trained long and hard like a man and stayed injury free for a change.

Ditto with Gebresellaisse. does he train radically differently when training for a 10k or a marathon? Or is it that trusty old formula of lots of miles, strength and a sprinkling of speed work?
19/12/2012 at 19:35

Lord D, are you suggesting that men and women train differently? You seem to imply that men train long and hard and women train... short and easy???? 

19/12/2012 at 20:38

Saw the Doc tonight and he couldn't be certain I have a broken rib - couldn't find any gaps so at worst it will be a small crack.  He offered an x-ray appointment, but reckoned it would only be for curiosity as it doesn't make any difference to the treatment.  I now have a prescription for a lot of Tramadol painkiller tablets, I will see how effective these are before trying to run again.  I am somewhat more optimistic as the pain has reduced dramatically in the last day or so without the pills.  The acid test - picking the cat up - I can now manage whereas on Monday this was impossible!  I can also numb any remaining niggle with Christmas tipples of course.

My plan is to get better more quickly than Charlie of course.   Speaking of which, I'm going to try CW's patented red wine treatment shortly!

19/12/2012 at 21:31

Lord Dids – I have heard that before about Paula, that she was (maybe) the first female elite to train like a man. Up until that point, female elite Marathoners hadn’t run the mileage or the big sessions that their male counterparts were putting in. Crucially, she did the big miles and monster sessions and stayed injury free for a while. The rest is history.

Lord Dids - I am not a North West resident btw, just taking the opportunity to get a couple of races in over that way while I have other business on in the area.  Did you run that other 10 miler, Walsall was it?

Good news that the rib is feeling better Wardi, enjoy the vino.

12miles @ 7:56/m in horrid filthy cold, windy and wet conditions for me tonight. Didn’t enjoy that one bit!

19/12/2012 at 23:40

TR - I agree on the need for slowness in the circumstances, but I'm confident that Y D has the control to do his 20s slow enough for now and it's all miles in the bank, which will stand to him.

Y D - sounds like a 'good to get done run'. Btw, look at Lidia Simon. She used to do some sessions that are 'Canova like' before they were, if you know what I mean.

LD - go to Letsrun.com and search for the Hadd, Cabral 2 different types of runner thread. It will open your eyes as to how training can (and should?) be different given a combination of runner and event. Additionally, I think, re: Radcliffe, Geb, etc, you need to remember that training is cumulative. What they do at any given point in time is as a result of everything that came before.

Sounds positive on the rib Wardi.

Me? I should know better than to open my mouth! I had a teenager step out in front of me yesterday evening. Completely accidental, yet it was so sudden that it involved me stopping and twisting which has hurt right through my right hip and the left side of my neck/shoulder. I took today off completely (and saveral hot baths to alleviate the pain), so hopefully, combined with a few relaxing drinks at my last Christmas do will see me wake up tomorrow pain-free.

TR
20/12/2012 at 09:40

Wardi - hope that rib heals soon, get on the bone deposit plan like CW.

TT - sounds like you need some healing time too

Got a busy weekend with a few partys (and maybe the odd Babycham) which might affect the early doors training, so as I had a day off work today I did 2 hrs on the Turbo earlier, which was supposed to be Saturdays training.

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