Sub 3

For anyone trying to crack the 3 in any marathon anywhere in the world

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03/01/2013 at 22:43
Fortunately Mr Crab I am able to provide compelling evidence for my "hot day" claim. Simply look through previous results and see what time you needed to get 187th place in London. In 2007 it was 2 hours 42 and a bit. In other years it was more like 2.38 or 2.39. Of course it could have been another reason, but hard to think what.

On that basis, I reasonably claim that high mileage gained me a good 20 mins off my PB. If you don't think that's dramatic, because you are already a better runner than that, then ask someone currently doing around 3 hours whether they consider it to be dramatic.

Onto the high mileage claim. Much harder to prove, of course, but until I hear that the top Kenyans are breaking world records off 45mpw, then I shall happily stay in the deluded belief I am also right on this.

Moreover, I feel saddened that people are actually prepared to mislead poor old ES that there is a better, more foolproof way to make big improvements than higher miles. These forums have loads of people who made big strides when switching to high mileage, the worlds best do high mileage, everyone involved in running says do high mileage. Ok some people may do well off low mileage, but surely he should be given advice that is more likely to help him succeed?
03/01/2013 at 22:59

Ooo I came back at just the right time... love all this debate! I'll be happy with a half-arsed approach and scraping another sub-3. Not as much time as some of you and besides... not sure my body could take it anyway... legs are threatening to run off with another woman after this weeks shock to the system.. I love it when they hurt!!

03/01/2013 at 23:12
Feckin hell, TR, you've given me a great idea. why didn't I think of this before. About 10 weeks ago I ran a HM and did 1.25. I had averaged 45 mpw for the previous 6 weeks.

I notice I have now averaged about 85 mpw for the last 6 weeks. No interval training included. therefore, the only thing that has changed is an increased mileage.

I shall now run the Central Lancs Half this Sunday as an experiment.

If I beat 1.25 I shall demand a grovelling apology from anyone that disagrees with me. Should I do worse than 1.25 I shall eat my shorts.
03/01/2013 at 23:17

I think that ES has set out the amount of time he is prepared to commit, so that kid of drives the schedule.
For me its build up to the hour max on 3 weekdays, 90mins on the longer weekday, an hour Saturday and then 2hrs Sunday all (deliberately) easy running, over the next few weeks to see how it goes. Then you can add a bit to the midweek 90mins, add a few miles on the long runs and add a bit of MP running, if you are still coping ok.  Should be about 60 mpw after a few weeks and about 65-70 tops. Build frequency, miles and then pace. Stick around ES !

SJ - good man

03/01/2013 at 23:21

Dids - thats one taker for my book ! I should read it too, I did 1:21 off a summer of 100* mpm (month) in Oct. NFRS indeed.

*although Padams runs 2:45s off less than that !

Edited: 03/01/2013 at 23:26
03/01/2013 at 23:45

 Averaging 70 miles per week from December 2006 ...

march 2007 Brentwood half ... 81:47 before London

red hot day london 2007 ... 3h16

may 2007 82:53 (one place behind Dan A)

2007 was quite hot

04/01/2013 at 00:31

I found my best times came from increasing the amount of times I ran every week from 3 to 4 and the odd 5 times a week. Haven't looked back since. Now running 4 times a week is a bad week! Even in the summer trying to crack a sub 30 minute 5 mile time I was running 5/6 times a week. The only question I have got LD, is that based on an av marathon pace of 6.52 required for a sub 3 marathon time, what sort of pace would you recommend for the higher mileage runs?

04/01/2013 at 01:02

Nichs.. I clocked 3:06.00 at FLM in 2007 off a Jan half time of 87:28.  I do declare you a not-so fairweather-runner!   

Dids.. the shorts you were wearing at York Park Run were clearly made of old potato skins.  Your 'eating my shorts' wager is therefore a bit limp.  

The old rib is healing gradually, I've even decided to man up and stop taking the painkillers altogether.  14+5+8+5 in the last 4 days, might even do a double next week!

04/01/2013 at 08:07

I'm not sure what I think about mileage. I certainly improved significantly by increasing mileage, but there's no way of knowing if I would have made the same improvement (or more) from lower mileage. I'd only just taken up running so improvement was more-or-less guaranteed. I've never been a massive mileage person - max was probably about 75 mpw average for the 2:29s, and then I've been running reasonably well since then off lower mileage plus lots of other training (cycling etc.), but that's after a few years of 3,000M+.

FLM 2007 was a bit warmer than usual - I rate that as one of my best runs ever, 2:33 for 48th place. Personally I prefer it a bit warmer, hence that time got me a position which usually required a 2:27ish. But I do feel people overestimate the effect of 20C, especially when there is water/sponges every 5-10 minutes to keep you cool.

8M last night at about 6:20 average.

04/01/2013 at 08:37
This is fascinating reading! I think for years people have struggled to correlate mileage to results. Day off yesterday as I did 3x loops of Portsdown Hill for a 36 mile bike in 2:04. Good fun and not too hard. Need to work on my cycling with the possibility if the Fred Whitton Challenge (112 miles over the lakes) coming up.
04/01/2013 at 09:04

Knight Rider - not sure there's much point being too prescriptive about the pace of your long runs. If you are doing other speedwork then long runs could be just a steady pace, if not then maybe you'd go quicker. (eg, use the later miles to run some at MP or 1/2 MP).

Personally I do most long runs slowly, but towards to race would run them faster.... especially the last 6-8 miles.

04/01/2013 at 09:08

Padams - actually, I confess that I didn't really find 2007 that hot. I was sponging down a lot as I ran and was never in any trouble, running to heart rate. I probably think that I ran a couple of minutes slower than I would have done, rather than the four that the stats suggest. (but I still reserve the right to call it a hot/blistering hot day as circumstances require!)


04/01/2013 at 10:16
CW - had confirmation from VLM that I will be I. The first pen as I put 2:54 down (I figured everyone inc 3:10 etc would put 2:59! I am prepared for barrage of hate - so I'd better run quicker!
04/01/2013 at 11:15

Toro - don't know if times have changed, but the GFA pen is/was shared by celebs. The year I was there they trundled them out at the last minute and had them strung along the front of hundreds of far better runners.

There were some expletives aired after the start - mainly aimed at a pair of supermodels who were jogging slowly along. Not really their fault.

04/01/2013 at 11:18

Dids: I think they've now separated GFA into FGFA (fast GFA) and GFA and the slebs go from GFA so Toro should be in a sleb free zone with a clear start.

04/01/2013 at 11:26

Not really their fault.

Really? I'm surprised you didn't suggest to them that they should have done 75mpw in readiness..... 

04/01/2013 at 13:35

Coro - at that point in my stellar career I was only doing about 50 mpw. We did have words though. They suggested that maybe I waited around for them at the finish and had a threesome in their hotel afterwards.

Last year I overtook Nell McAndrews (I think it was her) around the 5 mile point and got a similar proposition.

I'm getting a bit pissed of with it to be honest. Even the knotted hanky doesn't seem to put them off.

04/01/2013 at 14:20

So your 'hot day' claim is valid but it didn't make much difference and I was saying it wasn't 'dramatic' as I'm already a better runner than that.  All makes sense now ;o)

I'm not disagreeing that higher mileage doesn't work (and for the record if you ever witness me claim 'I'm already a better runner than that' feel free to punch me in the face repeatedly) .  Fck me I used to hit 3 figures most weeks for a period - and it wasn't for the love of it I can tell you.  It's just your everyone agreeing and it being dramatic. Even the great low mileage lazy @rse Padams only puts his improvement (much more at the pointy end) as significant.  I know let's tell everyone that they have to run high mileage to improve (and oh it will be dramtaic yes sirreee!) so they can either get injured, lose their house or decide against trying to improve in order to avoid injury or losing their house.  People come here for advice they can weigh up against their background, commitment level, personal bias and 'other pressures' not a prescription don't they?

Although probably a supporter (for me) of higher mileage I actually went from 3:07 to 2:55 (on the windiest day that entire day) on around 35mpw (predominanlty nads akimbo I'll grant you). Okay it's not even close to dramatic but it's probably enough to get most people from where they are (if they contribute here) to where they'd like to be but I'm not putting it forward as a cast iron gaurantee (although no doubt everyone agrees) but it's another way that worked for a sample set of one.  Or maybe it was the MG2 Memorial beard that did it.  Well the winner that day had a a full set too. Yes that's it everyone agrees if you grow a (I like to think decent) beard then sub3 is yours.  

Long time since I said horses for courses.

Good day to you sir.

As you were.

04/01/2013 at 15:04

“dramatic - sensational in appearance or thrilling in effect”

Believe me, as I hurtled down the Mall without an Elvis or furry animal in front of me for a change, with my Mother wiping a tear from the corner of her eye, my youngest daughter saying “has Daddy cheated?”, there was no other word more suitable.

I didn’t consider the house or the beard. In my defence, just suppose this were a medical forum, and ES wanted to know how to get better from cancer. Whilst I would advise chemo and surgery, and claim “everyone” would agree and that the effect would be dramatic (well, life rather than death if that counts?), I suppose I completely overlooked the handful of people who would actually advise drinking nettle/cranberry/ juice etc instead.

 I’ll address this, and in future I will also be more sensitive to those advising him to do a bit of chemo rather than get it properly sorted, because he only wants to be a bit better at this point.

Anyway, here's the weather..... 

BBC NEWS | UK | England | Runners brave marathon heatwave A record number of runners complete the London Marathon after sweltering in unseasonal heat
04/01/2013 at 15:09

I did hesitate when I wrote "significant", but thought it would be a safe enough word to use (I decided against "dramatic")....

It's like a new Pugometer - 5%-10% = "significant", 10%-20% = "dramatic" etc. etc.

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