Sub 3

For anyone trying to crack the 3 in any marathon anywhere in the world

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07/01/2013 at 11:03

Blisters -- I'm with LD, 7000 kCal sounds rather high. The odd thing I was picking up on is that I get hypo much more quickly on the bike (less time/intensity) than running, which I don't understand. In your case I guess the bike was the day after the run so you were maybe low on energy stores to start with anyway.

ES -- I remember when I first resumed my running career that I was utterly pooped afer my first 15M, and conked out afterwards. But a couple of weeks later it felt normal. Great that you've done the 20 already. Incidentally, I do now feel somewhat ill, which explains my feeling peculiar yesterday (and maybe my fade during the race).

Padams -- classy. Great one for you too, Jools.

SL -- 24 with some quick ones sounds tough!

Now I've decided I'm feeling a bit ill I'll probably give it a rest for a few days, as that will give my niggly ankle a chance to settle down too. I've no further race booked until 10Mar anyway.

07/01/2013 at 11:19

A quality weekend for XC.  Congrats on the County vest, speedy.  Excellent stuff from Padams and Jools.

Pleased with my performance at the Kent champs, 21st overall (2nd vet behind my vet-county champ club mate again!) and counted in the 6-to-score team that won silver behind a very strong Tonbridge team.  Oh yeah - great position, LJ  Followed that with another easy 20 miler yesterday, 7:23/m, HR 64%.

Got an invite to be considered for a county vest but that's the same day as the duathlon.  Also reminded myself that the duathlon is only two months away, so by way of not peaking too soon on the long runs, next Sunday's effort (day after a Surrey League XC) will probably be a long, hilly ride, with a quality 21M (incl. 7 @ MP) scheduled for the following week.  Feeling proper marathony now.

Edited: 07/01/2013 at 11:19
07/01/2013 at 11:42

Finished Seb Coe’s book. Anyone else read it?

Mixed thoughts on it, mainly positive. I loved the chapters about his running career. Thought he came across very well, and it countered a lot of myths about him being some posh Tory boy. His entry into politics was interesting, but then it became very dull and, despite reminding myself it was an autobiography, I started to think he really is overly smug about himself. He had a chapter about the failed football World Cup bid which was really good because he took a lot of the focus off himself for a change.

 When it came to the Olympics there was no mention of the ticket fiasco, instead he bizarrely has a massive amount all about the planning permission process to use Greenwich Park for the equestrian events and how he was right as ever and everyone else wrong. He probably devotes more to it than the 1984 Olympics, even though I don't even remember it nor even don't care about it! The rest of the Olympics are just several pages reminding us all that Mo Farah did well, Jess Ennis did well, Danny Boyle did well etc.

 Surprisingly he doesn’t seem to have many amusing anecdotes. Maybe spending too much time with his dad and William Hague is to blame, but surely Daley Thompson must have got him pissed and fixed up a threesome with some hookers at some point?

07/01/2013 at 13:10

PP - well done in the XC. Kent looks a bit more competitive than Herts.

Turns out I actually officially came 6th as the winner was not eligible. And we won the men's team prize again.

Oh, and black socks - no, I don't want to look like Lance. If they're very short they may just be acceptable.

Blisters    pirate
07/01/2013 at 15:04

May I offer a grovelling apology to all those who have questioned my attempts at basic mathematics. According to my Garmin the 21 mile run was worth 2735 calories, the 57 mile bike was 3256 calories, totalling 5991. Clearly I had mentally added in the mile swim on the previous day, or the couple of hours on the dance floor on Saturday evening.

Perhaps I should return that extra slice of pie to the buffet?

Analysis time? The legs were screaming possibly because I'd hit lactic threshold. I did this a few weeks ago, last time I did the 20 run/ 50 bike double. The completely goosed feeling was a combination: pushing a long way into the discomfort zone, not having had breakfast, and only having one chewy bar. Dehydration was categorically not an issue.
Good news time: the Sunday legs were horrid, but improved with every hour despite swim training at 6pm. I'm ready for more action now.

And finally, may I add my congratulations to all those folks who like to bathe in mud. You lot are truly inspirational.

07/01/2013 at 16:17

Blisters - last December when I wavered towards the gay cycling fraternity, I went on a 60 mile cycle without brekkie and supplies (I thought it was just going to be 40). I ended up sat outside Spar eating a mars bar as my buddies cycled off into the sunset. I was feeling all dizzy and confused and feared I may just drop off my bike.

It was actually the final straw for cycling and me.

07/01/2013 at 18:25

more good XC work there folks, but I'm still not joining in !

I have black socks, they dont show the claret on VLM day !

SL - banging in the miles again !

Blisters - cycling is power/strength based so needs calories. Wait til race day, you'll be shovelling in the flp-jacks. I did 3hrs (56m) Saturday and made sure I'd had breakfast (whcih I wouldnt do for a 3hr run), and had a cereal bar or 2 on the go.

5M, 1M, 5M today. I have had a cold for weeks, my foot and knee ache when i run, the tight hammy I had at the Hayling 10 is still too tight for my liking and I found 17M a long long way y'day. I've never felt so far away from a sub3 at this time of year. But keep calm and carry on, as it'd be a struggle to peak to early now even if I wanted to. Hopefuly my body adapts before I bench myself.



07/01/2013 at 18:46

you'll be right TR - u have a sequence to maintain man!!!!

top training and debating folks, makes for good reading for benchees and other lurkers!!

Happy New Year everyone and best of luck for hitting your tergats.  In particular, i am thinking Joolska and Wardi this could be your year!  And PP looks like breaking through to a whole nother level, along with maybe SL at the pointy end.

Nice to see Blisters back, and where has NtS gone after getting back amongst it!

LD - keep up the banter please, and say something to get CRAB out his cave again

07/01/2013 at 18:52

Selbs - agreed, I did put "keep calm and carry" on after all. The last 5 VLMs (and my only maras) have been 2:52, 2:55, 2:55, 2:53 and 2:51. Which is a feat of conistent consistency. I need it to end in either a 0, 4,6,7,8 or 9 this time.

07/01/2013 at 19:02

leaves you a LOT of space for a casual sub 3 campaign then if thats whats needed this year TR!!!

07/01/2013 at 19:03

unless of course it's an April 20C scorcher.  then you are clearly absolutley fcked due to the heat.  no chance.  give up now. 

07/01/2013 at 19:59

I'll reserve the 2:59 option for those conditions.

07/01/2013 at 20:17

Ugh, streaming cold. Bugger. 

07/01/2013 at 21:10

De-lurking again. 5 weeks into my VLM campaign and things haven't been going too well. Lots of eating and drinking over Christmas has resulted in a belly more suited to a darts player than a marathon runner, and then I started the new year with a run of zeroes due to a bout of man-flu.

Back to it today, and I've now put all my runs for the next 3 weeks into my work calendar to stop colleagues booking meetings with me at lunchtimes.

Great to see so many old faces coming back to the thread. Welcome back to Nichs2, Rununman, Dids, Blisters and Ouchie.

2007 was my debut marathon. I overtook literally 1,000 runners in the second half of the race, finishing at 3:15 (having aimed for 3:30) and meeting Blisters and Jools at the finish - although they may not remember. I think Joolska was called Jools B back then. I'd bumped into Blisters during the run through Deptford. It was a very warm day, but I've always enjoyed the warmer days more than the colder ones.

On mileage I would have agreed with Dids (as I do on HR for example), but my personal experience would argue against it. After 2:51 in 2009 I decided to up the miles from 60pw. But much higher miles in late 2009 (including trail marathons) and the 2010 and 2011 campaigns resulted in 3:07 and 3:06 performances. 

2007 42mpw 3;15
2008 58 mpw 3:05 (ill on the day)
2009 59 mpw 2:51
2010 65mpw 3:07
2011 66mpw 3:06

Looking back, the mistake I think I made was to drop regular speedwork sessions, just doing one set of 4 speed sessions in March. Through 2008 and 2009, the weekly club sessions really helped me to tolerate running faster and making MP feel easy.

07/01/2013 at 21:30

In 2007 you'll have overtaken me on Embankment MtR. 

Nice HMs for Dan A and LD and some serious cross country stuff from many more.

Blisters    pirate
07/01/2013 at 22:47

MtR, I do indeed recall meeting you, and have always sought out the likes of Wardi and Jools once over the finish line. They were usually waiting for me.
2007 was 3:12:55 fo me, after having done 3:06, 3:07 etc. I was comfortable in that bracket, so decided to re-write the training programme. That year I hit PBs in every single distance I ran 5k to 50k, with the exception of 42.2k. 2008 was better, filling the blank.

07/01/2013 at 22:57
MtR - fascinating, although i would point out a couple of things:
1. Your biggest improvement (a whopping 24 mins) came when you upped your mileage by 40%. (How long had you been running for before 2007)?
2. Increasing by a further 10% meant you worsened by 15 mins. Really, really inexplicable. But you were still faster overall on higher mileage?

How were your comparable half marathon times through all that?

A good friend of mine went from 3:30 to 2:55 when he upped his mileage from 50 to 80 miles.... However, as he has held mileage at this point (possibly increased slightly) his times have generally deteriorated. He did a 2:57 last year, but has done at least three of late where he hasn't broken 3 hours. He is a real creature of habit and doesn't tend to do things any differently from one to the next. (His pb came after losing a good few weeks through injury. )
07/01/2013 at 22:59

So reading between the lines.... 

Well done's to DanA on winning the battle of the shorts, LD for sporting black socks - I wear non running socks often because its old skool innit (well done on the sub 80 too btw, congrats on a vest to my old mucker Speedy Yay! (Yes I wonder too about the 'others', hope your cold pisses off, congrats to Jools on some nice mud wrestling and well done to all the long runners of the world... especially to ES on a day-boo 20 miler *sniff* proud moment that 

Nothing to report at my end sadly as I leapt head first off the couch and onto the bench in a little over 10 days... that'll be the famous runners patience kicking in right there eh Wardi?? 

A rather sore achilles tendon which will need a little rest and some ironing out I suspect. As per I tried a little waltz tonight but sacked it after 3 minutes of light maneuvering. 

I'll be back! Some new trabs usually helps the mind games too. I'd convinced myself, yet again, that my old shoes were good for another 1000 miles... Does anyone else repeat the same mistakes over and over is it just me?? 


07/01/2013 at 23:16
TR - I don't understand the cycling calories. When I'm doing 21 mph in the gym I'm only burning 800 cals /hour supposedly. So, 40 cals per mile. That would mean I'm only burning 2,300 cals on a 57 mile cycle? I've read other stuff that seems to tally with that, but have read it can be 60 cals/mile at that sort of pace.... And that would mean 3,500 cals over 57 miles. Why the big differences? What's reality?

Running is dependent upon weight. The gym treadmill tells me a steady run is 1,100 cals/hr. Websites tell me I burn 110-120 cals/mile. However, I would be surprised if it's that high. My gut feel tells me it's more like 100/mile. I do believe that you should always subtract 100 cals/hour which is what you burn without exercise to get the real calorie burn.

Furthermore, there's no way I burn 2,500 cals/ day on a non running day these days. I bet it's less than 2,000, sat at my desk all day.
07/01/2013 at 23:29

I always do the 100 cals / mile thing. Although if I set my Garmin watch up to be an uber athlete it comes up something like 45 cals per mile... pretty sure that's Haile territory. 

Disappointingly I went away to look up my marathon training history a la MtR only to discover I only have 2 of the campaigns logged on Garmin Connect. The other 3 are lost to the ether in training books or other now defunct online logs. I wish I had kept my  £2.50 WHSmith diaries going. 

So, I have nothing to compare really other than I have never done more than 50 miles per week average and in the two years worth of data I have - an increase of 7 miles per week average resulted in worse performances over HM and Mar times by a whopping 39secs and 51 secs respectively: 

2009 Lochaber
HM 1:19:12
Mar 2:57:15 

2010 London
HM 1:19:51
Mar 2:58:06 

Edited: 07/01/2013 at 23:30
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