Sub 3

For anyone trying to crack the 3 in any marathon anywhere in the world

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28/01/2013 at 15:40

YD - The only time I've done anything like that is a couple of times when I've done 20-odd miles in the morning as a normal long run, then 4 or so in the afternoon running with my girlfriend at an easy pace. Tended to feel pretty good the next day, but presumably that's because the second acted as a recovery run and stopped my legs feeling heavy.

I reviewed my marathon training plan today and realised I have an extra week to play with as I had VLM down for the 14th rather than the 21st (Fortunately my hotel and train are booked for the right day!). It does mean that my plan of 3 x 4 weeks with every 4th week a recovery week will have to flex a bit. I'd already added a week on to the front though so I guess I'll just make it up as I go along.

28/01/2013 at 15:58

YD - I run doubles fairly frequently - either when building a high mileage base (these might be something like 20+10, 15+10, 10+10), or to help recovery after a morning race (second run usually 4-5 miles).  And I think there are psychological benefits of running 25+ mile training runs (or 20 milers on consecutive days) - knowing that you can still run a long way at a decent pace after your legs have started feeling tired - but these need balancing with the risk of injury or overtraining. 

As long as the legs feel strong, do whichever you think you'd enjoy!

Edited: 28/01/2013 at 15:58
28/01/2013 at 16:00

YD - similar to yourself (and Andy above), I like to do a 20m+ in the am and 5 miles pm on the weekend in marathon build up.

This weekend was 24.3 in the morning finishing at about 1pm.  Was quite tired after, so a bit of food and six hours on the sofa watching sport.  Then 5 miles nice and easy at 19.30.  I don't consider that second run to be of any real training benefit.  Rather it gets the legs turning over again and means I can get up on Sunday feeling a bit fresher and manage another 10-12 miles.  Works for me any way.

Oh, and happy birthday again to ZaTTu.

28/01/2013 at 16:59

Thanks for the feedback, Njord, Andy, Dan A, Charlie and LD.

I frequently run doubles, especially when I have a hard session planned in the evening; in that case I often just go out for 4 or 5 miles at lunchtime just to shake the legs out and get a few extra miles in, but yesterday was the first time I have run a double the same day after a big run or session.
The recovery thing is also interesting, I have been quite sceptical about the concept of the recovery run in the past , but as I get into running bigger miles I am feeling the benefit of these types of run. Maybe it’s the extra blood flow, not sure.
I feel tired and sore today, but not as wrecked as I imagined I would though. Not sure if I am ready for the kind of mileage that Dan A and Njord are talking about either, not just yet anyway…….

28/01/2013 at 17:16

YD yes I know Darren P. He was switching clubs at the time I was dropping from club running. He is a great runner, trying to keep up with him on his warm ups was a lactate threshold for me at the time

28/01/2013 at 17:45

I consider a recovery run as running that will have minimal effect on your recovery from the previous day's (or days') hard sessions(s), I think they help you to combine the benefits of overall volume with the benefits of tough running. However I'm dubious about the suggestion that they positively promote recovery - perhaps this is an idea that arose when it was thought they helped to break down lactic acid. 

28/01/2013 at 18:32

I too understand that the 4 in a 20 + 4 Sunday is just a recovery run to loosen tired legs and had nothing to do with building endurance. FWIW I asked marathon coach Steve what he though of me doing my midweeker as a 13 and 5 commute, he said I'd be less likely to get injured doing it as a 5 and 13. But my world doesnt work that way round. So if YD wants to do a 22 and 4 maybe he shoudl do it as a 4 and 22. Although the best way to spread 26 across 2 runs would probably be as something like 13+13 or 16+10.
I'm still not sold on this 26M being needed on some Sundays, its a waste of matches IMO and extra time in the "danger" zone risking getting injured. My max long run time limit is ~expected race day time, which comes in at around 22 or 23M in training (I made longest of 23M run last 2:52 last year).

Back on the running commutes to see what happens to my knee, I wont bag enough run miles or frequency otherwise. Also back on the Glucosamine which I took when I originally hurt my knee a few years back, even if it only helps 0.5% then I'll be happy.

5, 1, 7 for the day, copped a right faceful of wind and rain on the run home too !

Edited: 28/01/2013 at 18:35
28/01/2013 at 20:25

LD -- "I thought that if YD had some lucozade, for example, it would be quickly available to his muscles..... or does it just go to your brain and stop you getting hypoglycemic?" -- if Noakes is to be believed, you've got it in one; what you consume in the race has very little benefit for your legs, but will help you avoid hypoglycaemia by sparing your liver glycogen. On the other hand, sugars you eat obviously make it to the muscles eventually, so in an all-day ultra you probably are using them as running fuel, and a little will make it in a marathon even.

Anyway, I'm dead impressed by the additional runs in the afternoon when you've all done long runs in the morning; the closest I get is the few cranky miles home when I've done a 12-14M speed session on the way in to work (same way round you have to, TR -- and hey I have glucoasamine & chondroitin too, just being Nerys, just in case it helps, even if it probably doesn't...).

28/01/2013 at 21:18
I have never tried to do an afternoon run after a 20 miler. It's hard enough rolling off the settee and getting a kitkat out of the fridge. I'm with TR - really remain unconvinced that very long runs are that much use. Maybe they are, it's just I've never spotted a personal correlation between lots of long runs and a good marathon.

CharlieW - if your understanding of carbs/glycogen is correct then my approach to taking carbs for a marathon is a load of bollocks! Oops. Presumably then, if your muscles are burning one supply and your brain is burning another, it won't really matter whether you are running or playing snooker. You'll get hyperglycaemic after the same amount of time? sound of tired joints as I head for the bookcase and reach for the Noakes book.
28/01/2013 at 21:35

If you're tired, don't try and pick up Noakes, Dids.  It'll just make your joints ache even more

6M easy tonight.

28/01/2013 at 22:05

One of the main reasons I do a 4 mile jog on a Sunday evening after my morning LSR is because it gives me a better chance of being able to walk to the bathroom Monday morning without doing my 90 yr old impression with screwed Achilles........seems to help "loosen them up"

........and to be honest (might as well eh)  I'm always sticking in 4-6 mile jogs whenever I can as I'm a mileage whore who loves to be able quote big numbers at the end of the week - I'm also pretty certain from experience that they make me a faster marathon runner , don't care why 

Interesting artical on recovery running (with no evidence or facts behind it but sounds good to me)

29/01/2013 at 07:32

LJ, Jools, CC2 - I believe my Mum helped at that XC on Stafford Common, no? Horrible place I can say that as a Staffordian!

I am getting the mileage up but total training hours down last week as I only managed 10 miles on the turbo on Sunday as recovery.  I am doing my Long Runs on Friday which is enjoyable.  I have a midday finish on Fridays so gets it out the way.  I have a XC race tomorrow in Plymouth which should be emotional. 

Shoes: I am going to wear in some Adidas Manas for the marathon I think.  I bought them because they were cheep (and I liked the colour)! 

29/01/2013 at 07:58

I used to do some 18+6 combos on a Saturday when I was doing marathons. No idea if they were better/worse than just doing 24M in one go, but it was a bit of variation from the standard long run (which I was doing enough of anyway), and sometimes it worked out better logistically.

Tweaked my calf running yesterday - was planning on swimming but the wife persuaded me to go out for dinner (had the house cleaned as we're putting it on the market, so didn't want to make the kitchen dirty!), so fitted in a short run instead. 4M in I could feel a bit of a twinge - nothing major hopefully (was still able to run normally). So will probably skip track this evening and do something cycling related instead. I haven't told Mrs Padams it was her fault yet!

29/01/2013 at 09:36

Morning all.

No reaction from the 18 TR?

PP - you're on fire! Looking forward to see what you do at Chichester.

LD - possibility on the treadmill being more cushioned, but I guess in my case as I get so bored on them I'll never just stick at a slow pace on them.

Nice long run CW, though I'll assume you meant 2:18, rather than 1:18

Another top long run Marigold.

I hope that calf injury turns out to be nothing Padams.

Plenty of nice long runs being done.

Cheers for the b'day wishes. I ended up spending most of the day suffering with a migraine and not running a step, so pretty rubbish really. I reckon the migraine was caused by sleep deprivation as a result of coming off the tablets I was on for the asthma (I had 3 consecutive nights of ~3hrs broken sleep), but I managed a mammoth 6.5 hours last night, so fingers crossed the effects are wearing off!

I managed 98m last week off of 6 days, and should hopefully make at least 90 off of 5 days this week (yesterday off, plus Saturday is Jr #2's birthday (and my usual rest day anyway)), so not too bad as long as I also get some quality in there too.

29/01/2013 at 09:55

Sorry to hear your birthday wasn't great TT

29/01/2013 at 10:41

Marigold - when your muscles are 50 years old things you'll find a very long morning run can turn your legs into useless wooden stumps. The theory behind that article makes sense. In fact, don't we really train for weeks/months in a state of general muscle fatigue? I think the question is at what point does more training have zero additional benefit.

I ran 8 miles at 9:30 pace yesterday morning (which is one of your recovery runs I would assume) after the long sunday run - with an eye on the Strava Greatest Runner in the World table. I am lying 10th at the moment with 3 monumentally hard days to go. There's five of us neck and neck for the coveted 10th place. 

29/01/2013 at 12:15

I missed your birthday -- hope you're fully well soon ZaTTu. Yes, 2hr 18 not 1hr18!

LD -- " if your muscles are burning one supply and your brain is burning another, it won't really matter whether you are running or playing snooker. You'll get hyperglycaemic after the same amount of time?"

Ah, I think it's a bit unfair. Your legs steal from your liver/blood too when running, but your blood doesn't make use of what's in your legs (if there's anything left) -- well, I infer that from Noakes' conclusions, anyway. So no gels required for marathon snooker sessions, only marathons. And I think there is just a limit to how much sugar you can absorb while running, hence the gels and sports gloop don't help your legs much, even if they can use some of whatever gets into your blood.

The bathroom scales showed a worrying upward trend in the last couple of days, just when I thought I was getting over Christmas -- yet my legs were more sprightly, so I did 2M @ 5:57/M as part of my run to work, with 2kg rucksack of course, overall 5M @ 6:18/M. Maybe I'm adjusting to those recovery runs a bit (nice link Marigold).

29/01/2013 at 14:48

15M for me; ended up averaging 7.58m/m but it took a while for the legs to get there - the first 4 miles were like striding through treacle (although obviously easier than Saturday's XC exploits!).  Thanks to Toro's mum, btw - not a day to be marshalling!

29/01/2013 at 16:48

Charlie.. I always though weight loss took about 2-3 weeks to show up on the scales when you think your exercise is exceeding your intake.  I wouldn't take much notice of short term gains/losses meself.  Nice commuting BTW.

I rather like Mrs Padams' logic regarding keeping the kitchen clean.  Mind you if the house takes a few months to sell the pair of you are going to be noshing an awful lot of takeaways & eating out frequently!       Best of luck with the niggle Padams

TT.. belated happy returns, sorry you weren't in the best condition to enjoy it.  Good to see you are still getting the miles in though.

Jools.. nice midweek miles again.  BTW if you want a bit of encouragement have a look at this young lady.  She barely scrapes under 40 mins for 10k, can't quite break 90 mins for a half but runs 2:58.06 at Frankfurt last year!  Splits of 89:04/89:02 aren't too shabby either!

'when your muscles are 50 years old things you'll find a very long morning run can turn your legs into useless wooden stumps'.. thus spoke Dids - a good point well made, how very true.  I can add that at 55 years old the wood starts to rot.. 

4.2m on the treadie first thing, about 7m with the club later.


29/01/2013 at 17:17

She came and spoke to me at the Tri Counties XC in December (to let me know that usually I beat her but that day she beat me); I didn't manage to speak to her after the SW XC in January to let her know that normal service had resumed

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