Sub 3

For anyone trying to crack the 3 in any marathon anywhere in the world

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12/02/2013 at 22:22

RS78 - there's always a good turn our from NFR. Have you done it before?

TB - last year we had to change the course on the morning of the run due to torrential rain in the 24 hours before.  Basically we cut out Cheviot & Hedgehope but it still made for a very tough 16 miles due to the conditions.

I know the route like the back of my hand because that is my training ground although I mostly stick to the roads these days.  Definitely get here and do some recce runs. RS78 might be able to advise but NFR tend to do two or three runs out. 

There are no shortcuts.  The checkpoints are positioned to ensure that. The only places where it can get difficult in bad whether (as in seeing the route) is between Broadstruther and Cheviot Knee, Valley to the top of Hedgehope and around Brands Corner so if you're going to run on the course I'd target those areas.

I can get you the grid references if you like?  If you plan to come one Sunday and need a guide let me know - we have guys running out there most Sundays. I often run with them when not marathon training.


12/02/2013 at 22:40
RS. Bad news- sorry to hear.

I sometimes like to carry a couple of large coconuts on longer runs in case of unexpected thirst.

I think you need a serious discussion with your coach, LD. I think he has some strange ideas about mileage and nutrition, IIRC your starvation program from previous years. That said maybe his ways are the future, because as we have clearly established in our 90k posts there is almost nothing to agree on in this (simple) game.

A mere core workout followed by 5k dreadmill blast for me today. Pleased to say it all felt very comfortable despite very heavy legs first thing. Maybe there is something in this training lark after all. I might try more of it.
Edited: 12/02/2013 at 22:42
12/02/2013 at 23:22
OS - a strange thing happened today. For the first 12 miles of my run I was averaging about 8 min/miles. My coach then bought me a bottle of the much maligned lucozade (from a shop where I once made a citizens arrest whilst on a run, as it happens). "Most kind, but What's the point?" said I, "tis useless". Thereafter I was transformed. Lazarus banging out 6:30min miles.

Clear, unrefutable proof that my coach is not just a nutritionist par excellance but also a bringer of miracles.
13/02/2013 at 00:28

Enjoyed your dentist story Dids, at least he didn't come out with the line.. 'your teeth are fine but the gums will have to come out'..  Good effort on the weekday 23m, though surely eating horse is 'so last week'.  I must also commend TB on a snowy 25m mid-week!

RS.. sorry to hear no VLM though your plan seems sensible.

Marigold.. excellent sesion on the seafront, do you re-fuel with whelks, cockles & the like? 

CL.. well done on the grey & miserable 23m, hope the heel sorts itself out.

Andy D.. a cracking 5k amidst a 10m run.

DanA.. nowt wrong with a longish run on tired legs, good stuff.  I did try a graph of your marathon performances and it looks uncannily like my map of the Himalayas!

TT.. very nice tempo run there.  You always came across as being very knowledgeable about training, so it will be interesting to see if the coach makes a difference.

JH1.. that birth defect is in an unfortunate place for a runner!  Hope it dosen't impede your short term training too much.

Brian.. many congrats from a fellow (very senior) dodger for your V50 victory at Liversedge, shame you have had to suffer for it.  Hope the calf improves quickly.

4.1m this morning & 6.8m with the club tonight.  The two fleet of foot girlies were absent tonight so I had to run around with a few hairy old blokes for a change.  Tough old world sometimes.

I must try a blend of coconut & beetroot juice. 




Edited: 13/02/2013 at 00:29
13/02/2013 at 08:01

Minni it was on my way to Cheviot Knee that things started to go wrong finally ending up on the wrong side of Hedgehope I will give you a shout when I can head up there for a Sunday run. Likley to be early March as I have a hectic couple of weeks coming up. RS glad to hear you are also support a great NE race.

LD saw you run on Strava that was a great mid week session. 

Thanks for the feedback on coaching. I did try an "tinternet" coach last year for a few months(Who is a reasonably well known person). Can't say I got anything from it. Got very little feedback and even made up some session times to prove he was not even monotring them! So I ended our relationship there and then. There was also the problem that my "precious" did not like other people messing with the "precious". I like the idea that self coaching gives the satisfaction of baking it yourself.

13/02/2013 at 08:31

RS - shame about that, hope it gets sorted quickly.

LD/TB - impressive long runs, particularly midweek!

Andy D - very nice. Did you just randomly decide to do a 5k effort durng a run?

Couldn't make it to the club session last night, so switched it around and did a turbo last night (60 mins with some efforts) and ran this morning - 9M inc. 2 faster miles (6:08 and 5:52) and some hill reps on the snow in the park (400m uphill, 400m downhill, 200m flat, ran the up and down hard, recovered on the flat). Started at 5:30am - does that count as Gobi o'clock?

13/02/2013 at 08:57

Coconut water should only be served with a large measure of rum whilst sat on a beach in the Caribbean.


RS – Sounds like the right decision,.

Andy – Nice 5K

Tim – As mentioned a few pages back I have a coach (kind of) he’s a bit mad and only decides what I do 2 days of the week (the quality/speed sessions) the rest is fudged together by myself.

TT – Nice tempo.

Wardi – Solid miles mate.

13/02/2013 at 09:03

Two zero days for me, work and family quite rightly coming first. Sat waiting to get on another 11 hr day it would be nice to be able to use some of those nearly half million air-miles I've collected. I've got a half on Sunday so I've packed some racing flats. Although many 1000s in the race a quick check of the results shows it could be quite sparse towards the front. 

Very impressed by these long mid week runs, takes quite some commitment. Well done.

13/02/2013 at 09:09

TT, Good luck with the new coach, and a nice 10M stretch.

Dids, You need to take a break and let your fellow dodgers close the gap on you. Your coach may be the only one to give you a run for your money.

TR, Couple more long runs and you will be pea-shelling.

Andy D, Quality 5k TT.

Simonx9, Beer is my recovery drink of choice.

RS78, You've done the hard bit making the decision. Sensible approach. Enjoy the fells.

DanA, Did you give away your number for the 2x ~2:45 runs?

Wardi, let me know when you are doing York Parkrun next - may come and join you. Not this Saturday though, struggling at the mo.

Suitably good training sessions from Padams, Marigold et al (you know who you are).

3rd zero for me today. Due some pain on the massage table tonight. Hoping the calf will be ok to go by the weekend.

13/02/2013 at 09:31

Padams - I was just going to do 10m easy-ish but bumped into my club coach on the prom where I usually run. They were doing a time trial and had set off a couple of minutes before I arrived, so I joined in and had a few people to chase.

13/02/2013 at 09:36
Apologies I was (for us Suvverrn Softies) oop norf watching a game of Wendyball. Won't be there next week either - I'm off altitude training. Which isn't the cheapest way to spend half term.

Did some running earlier but never saw anyone with a knotted hankie on his noggin. Which was nice.

As Crewe were.
13/02/2013 at 09:48

CL - Congrats on the XC promotion.  Nice long run, you looked like you were going all right yesterday, but hope the achilles is OK.

Coconut water.. would that work in a Thai green curry?  Excellent recovery fuel then!

6 x 1k at the track last night, 3mins/500m brisk-jog recovery. A final quality blast before I ease off for Brighton HM on Sunday; hanging off the back of a fast group made it feel less quick than it was: 3:08, 3:06, then a metronomic 4 x 3:05. Puffing a bit towards the end!

Edited: 13/02/2013 at 09:51
Cheerful Dave    pirate
13/02/2013 at 10:26

CL, you swapped places with my club too.  Mind you, there was a time not too long ago where we'd struggle to get a team out in Div 4, so even a single season in Div 2 made a nice change. 

13/02/2013 at 12:18

Nice 'coro 10', TT, and glad you're happy with the new regime. Sounds like your fitness isn't too bad after all!

Long runs by LD and TB on a weekday -- could be a half-term holiday thing? Well bagged with yours CL, and the XC, hope the achilles improves.

Sorry about the leg RS -- the physio I saw with sciatica actually laughed out loud at my lack of hamstring stretch, saying it was the worst she'd seen bar one in her career. Have tried to be better about stretching them for a minute each every morning since.

Good turns of speed, AndyD & Marigold.

Good luck in the race coro -- I don't have to travel too often, but always jam some light shoes and kit in my laptop bag when I do.

6M @ 7:12/M or so en route to work; legs feeling much less creaky than yesterday. I think I'll still skip any speed for a couple of days though, as I know that the calf DOMS comes straight back if I try that malarky too soon after a big race.

13/02/2013 at 12:56
TR wrote (see)

Postie - looks like you are going in the right didrection then, and if you are improving your training then there's more to come. Your Wokingham time shows that you are in teh sort of shape you were for Abo and still have 10 weeks until VLM. You need to get under 80mins for 1/2 to be ~2:50 ish, but you'll need that 1/2 down near 75mins to get the sub 2:45.

Postie I have to say from experience that I agree with TR. That's supported anecdotally in 2011 when I did a 1h20'08 HM followed by a 2h50'11 marathon. Admittedly I was a bit unwell and injured at the marathon but the correlation of 80 mins HM to 2h50 M looks about right to me, which is the wisdom on here. How old are you and do you do speed work in training? By the way, I don't doubt you can crack 80 mins for the half. Nice target that I may try and drag my weary body towards if I can too.

Coconut milk - haha. I'm definitely in the camp that it's best in curry or with rum. I've just eaten some beetroot though so hope it helps with my run this afternoon.

Edited: 13/02/2013 at 15:04
13/02/2013 at 15:06

Nice impromptu 5k TT Andy D. I believe Haile Gebreselassie used that one to break the 2m record to!

Sorry to hear that RS78. You're due a bit of a break.

Nice midweek lr LD.

Nice dreadmill action to add to your first 20m OS.

Cheers Wardi. I read too much, and then can't resist tinkering. It worked before with Barry for me to the extent that it meant I didn't think about training and simply got on with it (though of course this was only viable because I understood what the purpose of the training was in advance - I wouldn't be able to do it quite like that with somebody whose methodology I didn't know). What I have to not do this time is, as Jools mentioned, push too hard to try to impress, but being several years older, and therefore, hopefully wiser..........
Additionally, I'm very 'black and white' about things. I struggled over the last few years to get out the door on a regular basis because of Mrs TT's study which I knew would stop me doing the training I wanted to (but it was obviously the right thing/more important than just running) - I very much tend towards all in or else I can't be bothered (something I try to water down a bit nowadays), so returning to coaching is also, for me, a commitment to getting back to regular consistent training.

Tim - in addition to what I've said to Wardi above, I trust my coach. I think, as you've touched on, if you can't then it's not viable.

Good luck on Sunday coro. Is this the same one you ran last year?

Fingers crossed the massage sorts you out Brian.

Still looking good PP. Good luck for Sunday.

CW - yeah, I'm still surprised with that run, but still think it was just the cold making it feel easier than it was.

13/02/2013 at 16:49

My God that run was cold. East Anglia, bleak wind cutting through everything. Even the reps didn't get the circulation back.

13/02/2013 at 16:50

Good pace Andy D, PP and Marigold

Zattu - encouraging tempo, especially in a longer run.

Good midweek long runs from Dids and TB.

Padams - that would be Gobi o'clock for me.

Brian - hope your massage does the business.

CL - good long run on Sunday, probably good to run it slow after XC on Sat (congrats on the promotion btw).

OS - this training lark seems to be working for lots of people on here at the moment, maybe we should keep it up...

Wardi and Charlie - more good miles.

RS78 - sorry to hear about your hamstring, you'll have to make yourself a guinea pig for one of your course mates to see if they can sort it.  Will have to see how training goes regarding the VLM target but I'm hoping it will be close to 6 mm pace.  I have a half in 3 weeks which will be a good indicator of where I am.

Club run for me last night, did 1M on my own first then 8M with the group and felt good at the end so finished off with 2M on my own at 5.35 pace then home for loads of pancakes.  Ran off the pancakes this morning with a much slower 17M.  

13/02/2013 at 16:51

x-post - Missing Thailand then HR?

13/02/2013 at 17:06

CW - I know you like the diagnosis stuff so you might be interested in this. Saw a local physio this afternoon who a mate on my course playing semi professional football recommended. He did various tests including the slump test and has diagnosed:

- Neural tension down the left side/ridiculously tight piriformis - basically a sciatic impingement of sorts.
- Tight quad
- Extremely stiff lower back
- Pelvic tilt not being helped by lack of core at the moment
- These issues are causing the stiffness/laboured sensation in the left side during running and the tightness especially when running with effort (longer stride).

Says nothing serious but given me lots of exercises to stretch piriformis (plus lyin on a tennis ball into piri ever 2-3 days) and relax lower back. Need to get back on the core big time and only do crawl in the pool, no breast stroke. Christ he "released the piriformis". Said beforehand "this is unpleasant" was....but it's already released loads of stiffness. Interestinly I'm to avoid stretching the hamstring as this is only aggrevating the issue. 1 week or just under no running following his exercises then start again with some easy running and I should be back to running normally with a maintenance plan after that.

Quite interesting from a learning point given I'm a student physio.

Edited: 13/02/2013 at 17:10
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