Sub 3

For anyone trying to crack the 3 in any marathon anywhere in the world

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16/06/2013 at 13:55

PS -  I'm newish to HRMs ....  my HR averaged 174 today, only 2 higher than half-marathon last week .... is that telling me I should have worked harder today?

16/06/2013 at 15:05

TR.. nice 18m in he bank & congrats on that 10k PB.

TT.. you should be able to eat lots of pies on that sort of training volume, great stuff.  Shame about the .99 at the end though, a lap of the front garden should have rounded that up nicely!

Pi Man.. good PB progress, more to come by the look of it.

OT.. enjoy the recovery, you could be right about tiredness/overtraining though it could be the onset of a bug.

I currently have a strange situation where my 5k's are respectable/encouraging but my 10k's are disastrous.  My sub 20 5k's should translate into 41/41:30 for 10k but the last 3 have been in the 43-44 bracket with gradual fading and heavy legs as the race goes on.  After the last one on Tuesday I cut right back on mileage, had 2 rest days and didn't run any further than 5 miles (assuming tired legs).  Either that or Mrs Wardi's anaemia is contagious!  I have been doing 2 runs a week of 10-13m so the endurance should be ok.

Anyway, feeling suitably refreshed I did a 5k in Rowntree Park in York today.  It was 'men only' as CRUK were trying to raise awareness/fund research of male cancers.  I couldn't resist a lovely course combined with the assurance of not being chicked!  I donated £25 to the cause for my entry, so at £5 per k I wanted a decent run   The 5k consistency continued - 19:44 for 13th/200 ish so at least my confidence got a boost. 




16/06/2013 at 15:26

Wardi - Cheers mate I'll keep that in mind! Good effort on the 5k!

16/06/2013 at 15:40

Pi Man: Nice pb again there. My 10km and HM HR is pretty much the lining.

16/06/2013 at 16:05

Pi Man - Congrats on the PB

Wardi - Another nice 5k

TT - I always enjoy reading this thread when someone is doing something I consider far, far beyond my limits. I think your current mileage falls into this category. Well done, and more importantly, I hope you get the pay off for it.

Just back from the Freck Half Marathon. It only started 2 hours ago and I'm already at home with a beer in my hand. Local races are ace. A disappointing performance though. I knew I wasn't in great shape and I 6min/mile'd up to about 8m then died. Time was 1:22:3x. On the otherhand, it was nice to meet Jonny, who claimed Fred honours with a great time.

16/06/2013 at 16:10

Pi man - about half of my training I do by heart rate, and these sessions are always in HR "zone 2" roughly 75-85% of your max, which for me equates to around 144-164, (I always try to keep it at the top of this range though) and pace wise (usually) low 7s, the theory behind it is you are spending "time in the zone" it should be relatively comfortable, and for the sessions where the goal is just to have your heart and lungs working, and miles in the legs, but a session which you can easily recover from for other key sessions, for example if you do intervals/tempo runs. Having trained like this for the last 6 months I can tell if I creep even 4/5 bpm above 164, because that's the point you start breathing heavier. It also allows you to monitor if you've been going too hard. 

I know loads of people pay no attention to heart rate whatsoever, but I've had good improvements with it, so it's one metric I do pay attention to. However I don't race by heart rate, because raceday nerves throw it all over the place, and I think it would hold you back rather than give any useful information.

Edited: 16/06/2013 at 16:11
16/06/2013 at 17:08

Cheers TR. Feeling strong is, indeed, the ideal thing at the moment. Speed is nothing as such to write home about yet, but I know that will improve dramatically during specific phase if I get this part right. Missed your 18m the other day btw. Nice one. And cool with your kids too. They're obviously very talented.

Congrats on the pb Pi Man. Well done.

OT - it sounds like you've just had a few hard days and are tired. Overtraining is completely different. A few very easy days and you'll be flying. Btw, if you're doing half of your training aiming at 85% of maxHR, that essentially means you're doing half of your training at pretty close to Mara effort, which is a lot......... How much mileage do you do altogether?

Well done on the 5k Wardi. Re: the 10k, are you doing any longer tempos? Maybe 8-10m @ around mara effort, or a bit less a bit quicker? I'm just eating my usual industrial quantities of food, but the mileage should see me start to come down towards race weight over the coming weeks without any other changes hopefully.

Cheers Andy D. Well done on the HM, even if it wasn't what you were looking for.

16/06/2013 at 17:13

Congrats to those with PBs and those with mileage figures | can only dream about. 21km run for me today with 81km for the week. Have slowed my overall pace as recommended here, so almost ready to tackle P & D for autumn mararthon. 

16/06/2013 at 17:29

TT - its about 30-40 seconds slower than marathon effort, it is pretty comfortable, and the pace I use for "easy" sessions, the other stuff I do faster, i.e. tempo running etc. It's "zone 2" in the "Don Fink" Ironman training programs, and they recommend pretty much all running in that zone, do you think that is too fast and better off going slower? And yes you're right I didn't really mean overtraining, just leftover fatigue from a few heavy days! Running miles I usually do 40-50pw

16/06/2013 at 18:53

CW, I sympathise - am in a very similar position here.  3-4 weeks ago, I started getting a niggle in my left glute. It was ok to run on for a bit but then started to get worse. I've now been taking it very easy for 3 weeks and have barely run (in the hope that it will get better before I lose all my fitness, Berlin still being 15 weeks away).  It has - gradually - but is still bothering me and I think it's probably better to wait until fully healed.  Still, I hate not being able to run - and I was probably in the best shape I'd ever been in too.  Grr...

16/06/2013 at 18:53

Hi, you may remember me, I'm the guy who set off too fast aiming for sub 315 in the Edinburgh Marathon and ended up with 302. Just back from two week's hols in Brittany. Spent first week running down the coastal GR34 early in the mornings then jarred by ankle so seven days off prior to today's Men's Health Glasgow 10k. Managed my first sub-40 in 37:48, with a 5k PB of 18:55...a negative split unlike my 1h25.56 halfie split Edinburgh Marathon effort:O). Now starting 16 weeks' training for Kielder Marathon with pretty rigid five-day schedder of Monday 8.5, Tuesday 6.5, Wed rest, Thursday 8 (intervals etc at running club),Friday 3. Saturday long run (13-22) and Sunday rest. If anyone has any tips about how to get the best marathon time from this schedule, plus tips re: Kielder (does anyone know the ascent), pls let me know.

16/06/2013 at 19:25

AL_P - Jools and TT are both right IMO. From my experience of seeing Physios and from what my lecturers have said most people do have a leg legnth discrepancy. Whether you need orthotics or not will depend on how severe that difference is. From what I've been told recently: its often down to considerable pelvic shift. This then puts strain on muscles like the piriformis (which can irritate the sciatic nerve when it contracts from overuse ) Sitting at work deactivates the glutes as well so if you start doing some squats and also strengtheNing glute med (clams exercise) working on core you can stabilise the pelvis. I've done all this stuff recently and was re-tested by the physio after doing the exercises and I've re-stabilised the pelvis and sorted my posture out. I've spent a fair while asking some my physio lecturers about it. 

Orthotics will definitely work for some but you might want to try sorting the pelvis out and strengthening one side if its weaker first (my left side was weaker and I also overproNate on my left foot). I'm sure the person you've seen will know their stuff but I've been told that its best to try and address the route cause first than accommodating it. Everyone is different though so what works for one might not for another.

Thackers: id ice it for the next 2-3 days as its in the inflammation phase. You can move to heating the area after that when things start to stiffen up (scar tissue) Sounds like it'll probably be atleast 2 weeks recovery and if you come back too soon it'll just prolong recovery. Prabs best to see someone though to diagnose how severe it is re rest/recovery period. Drop me an email if you want mate - one of our exam scenarios was Achilles related.

(Might I'm just a fizz student whose completed one year so I'm happy to share anything I know if it might be of use but I'm far from able to diagnose/treat fully)


I'm back running tentatively, still have a slight nerve issue causing tingling in left foot but I've been told its ok to run on and that the exercises to sort the nerve out should continue to ease it. Enjoying combining short runs with swimming and the gym. 


Edited: 16/06/2013 at 19:51
16/06/2013 at 19:35

Cheers Rob, I'll send you a pm

Just taken my trousers off ( ooer missus! ) & looks like the lower left leg is swollen as well, Oh Dear. 

16/06/2013 at 20:09

HR - 60mpw is good going if you feel like you CBA

Cheers Andy was great to meet you earlier

OT - wise to ease off. Best listening to your body when you're tired. Agree with TT few easy/rest days and you'll probably feel great again by next weekend

Wardi - congrats on the consistent sub 20's

TT - glad to see you're starting to feel strong again after your recent hip(?) problem. I struggle to comprehend that type of volume. Looking forward to seeing what you do in the autumn

As Andy's suggested it the the Freckleton Half for me this morning. The aim was to run it evenly at about 5.50 pace for the first 8/9 miles and see how I felt from there. After the first couple of miles I was about 13th and made a game of trying to catch the person in front. I managed to do it pretty succesfully and maintain the 5.50's up until 10 miles when I realised I wasn't going to be able to catch anyone else which left a hard 3 miles alone into the finish for 6th place in an 'official' 76.14. I say 'official' because my watch and the car clock both suggested 76.35. Not complaining though and will take the better time. Has anyone else had a similar issue?

Really pleased overall and tucking into a few Belguim ales in celebration now. My first half since May last year and it's a 5 and a half minute PB! The event itself has a great atmosphere and I'd recommend it to anyone who fancies a flattish half.

Blisters    pirate
16/06/2013 at 20:43

Wardi, that price per mile (none of this foreign muck) must have stung a true blooded Yorkshireman like you. Half decent 5k result for an old geeezer. 10ks need to be tackled with marathon thought process and a bit of specific training. Handbrakes on, relatively speaking for the first part. And you need some twat of a rival who needs seeing off.

Blisters    pirate
16/06/2013 at 20:50

If CRAB's around, I did race today.
Half ironman, Cotswold 113.
Target was to have fun.

Swam like a runner. Surprised to find that there were still people in the lake after I got out. Not surprised to see that there weren't very many.
Biked like a demon and overtook hundreds. Seriously. Got overtaken just once. Presumably because nobody was behind me.
The 13.1 mile run was a delight to begin with. Bouncy, light, (not fluffy), Halfway round the wagon shed its wheels and it was a drag. Perhaps I left my running legs at home. That bit was 1:48, which wasn't too bad, but could have been better.

Remember that I'm not in this class any more.

16/06/2013 at 21:03

ST - As has been stated, there are no experts on here. However, speaking as someone with a chronic Achilles injury, all I can say is stop running immediately and get yourself to a profressional for a diagnosis. I hope it's not serious, but if it is, the earlier you get it seen to, the better.


16/06/2013 at 21:11

Jonny - Just checked and my official time is 20secs less then my watch time too. Given they seemed to rush the start I suspect the race clock was started and then they radioed the starter to ask him to kick it off . Some level of synchronisation between the PA, the starter and the person with the race clock probably would have been better.

16/06/2013 at 22:08

Al_P - Orthotics got me running when I couldn't run for more than a few miles without terrible shin splints.  In the end they caused a lot of trouble and probably played a part in the injury I'm coming back from at the moment.  I've ditched them and so far so good.  It does appear to have changed my gait in a positive way in some respects although competent physio could possible have done the same thing.  If you do go for it, please, please, please get them cast by a podiatrist/orthotist.  In my experience physios tend to think that they have expertise in this area which they simply haven't got.

ST - Sounds like you properly hurt yourself.  Go see a professional.

CW - Hope you get over the niggles soon.

Pi Man - Nice improvements - well done

OT - I'm with TT - I think of easy running as around about 70%, if you do it at that level you should be able to do a bit more - slowly you'll become a better runner.  That said, if you're following a plan, it's always good to see a plan through rather than chopping and changing too much as you go along.  As an aside I would expect ironman training to have a bang for your buck approach to running training especially as you'll get a lot of work in on the bike at the lower heart rates.  If you're doing ironman great, if you're just running maybe follow a running specific plan?

TT - Very nice!

Wardi - Nice (but expensive) 5k.  Tempo and 10k pace work are what come to mind on how to improve 10k relative to 5k when endurance isn't an issue.

TR - A fast 10k and an 18 mile run.  Sounds like there's a sub 2:50 genie in the back of your mind.  I have huge respect for the time that you allow for your kids.

Lev - Hope you're off the bench soon.  If you think about it, it makes sense that you get injured when in your best shape - a lot of injuries occur because we push the boat out too far.

DS2 - You really want to see a bit of progression in your training over the 16 weeks.  If you keep running the same distance runs at the same pace you'll not get much fitter.  Also I don't see the purpose behind any of the runs?  You should be thinking of lactate threshold runs, marathon pace runs, medium long runs, easy runs, VO2 max runs etc.

Jonny - Congrats. That's a huge improvement.

Puddletown plod 20k for me today.  It was actually a training run in a race but I wasn't sure how it would go as I did 68 mins yesterday and these are the only 2 days in my 14 day cycle that call for running on consecutive days.  Ran it by HR which helpfully reined me in especially on the hills.  Managed to dip in under 1:40 which is 11 minutes slower than 2 years ago but I enjoyed this race a lot more.

Edited: 16/06/2013 at 22:10
16/06/2013 at 23:46

Clearly - cheers mate, yeah I am doing Ironman in August, but focusing on pure running after that, thanks for the advice.

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