Sub 3

For anyone trying to crack the 3 in any marathon anywhere in the world

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Cheerful Dave    pirate
06/09/2013 at 13:58

You're right selbs, I might be in that 'important subgroup', although athlete heart syndrome doesn't cause blackouts.  That's why I'm detraining right now - if it's athlete heart syndrome the ECG will go back to normal, and then hopefully they'll put the blackout down to a one-off event.

padams - turbo sounds a good plan in the circumstances, a couple of hours easy pedalling (by your standards) in front of the TV and you'll feel much better.

06/09/2013 at 15:59

Fair enough HR

Nice low key 5km CW.

Padams - I remember getting tired a lot easier whilst on a course of antibiotics before. Just something for you to bear in mind.

Al_P - I'm looking forward to seeing what you do on Sunday; you're in very good shape. I know the vest so I shall keep my eyes peeled.

Cheerful Dave    pirate
06/09/2013 at 17:04

TT, do you think that was down to the antibiotics themselves, or down to whatever it was you were taking them for?

06/09/2013 at 17:06

Al_P - physio last night confirmed what I expected, i.e. inflamed tibialis anterior.  It is exactly the same tendon in exactly the same leg as I injured post-Berlin last year, just a bit higher up.  Possibly aggravated by suddenly facing big uphills/downhills when running on holiday.  He told me a bunch of reasons why I was running wrong - I kind of glazed over, but the summary seems to be:

  • Foot doesn't flatten properly when it hits the ground, meaning less impact is absorbed
  • Not enough flexibility in foot/ankle
  • Not enough flexibility in hips

So I got a bunch of exercises to do.  He says I can continue to run short distances, and it does seem to be on the mend.  However, running Maidenhead seems silly.  I had hoped for a confidence-boosting PB ahead of the marathon, but it seems unlikely in any case given the last couple of weeks, and all that would happen is I would put Abo at risk.

Not 100% decided yet, but seems very unlikely I'll run.  Then hopefully I can resume training properly next week, otherwise it calls Abo into question too.

Shame, I was looking forward to a good old ding-dong with you and TT, we could have pushed each other to some decent times.  I'm certain you'll both pull out some great times.

Good to see selbs back to it, and puts my moaning into perspective.

Edited: 06/09/2013 at 17:10
06/09/2013 at 18:14

Good luck in the half Al_P, sounds like you're doing a nice taper.

Glad you're finding some good with the spare time CD, and hope that it proves to be a false postive too.

Sorry about the shin Dachs, but I'm curious -- what exercises did your physio recommend? My left tib. a. is a bit dodgy still. I try and strengthen it my flapping my feet up and down while standing, and by walking along on my heels, and stretch it by kneeling on my legs with my feet out flat behind me on the bed -- part of my standard routine. Got any others?

06/09/2013 at 18:29

Selbs - nice to see things on the up a bit for you, hope the trend continues. You did 8x6:07 with zero rest, I had a rest every mile !

Padams - nice to see you feeling better, you still have about 5 weeks to get your powers back up.

Jools - 2M loops and keep going, just make sure that you stop (and walk home) if it gets tight. Thats my post calf plan anyway.

CD - good to see you keeping busy. I always fancied getting some of that Lego that you can program, but then its a bit of a busmans holiday.

Al_P - I guess you'll have a better idea of Frankfurt MP after Sunday, but I'm guessing it'll be quicker than I could do at the Solent 1/2. We'll see, I might attach my elastic to you.

HH - nice one on the NF running, I'll be there with a number on in 2 weeks.

CW - write the alphabet with your feet whilst you are seated at your desk.

60min Turbo (only done the odd turbo all summer) and 2K swim today. need to get a bit of swim and bike sharpness going, Turbo is the best place for bike sharpening.

Edited: 06/09/2013 at 18:30
06/09/2013 at 20:08

8M - no pain during or after, so fingers crossed I'm good for double figures on Sunday.  Will continue stretching in front of the athletics.

06/09/2013 at 21:45

More good news Jools, bet you're looking forward to 10m+!

CD.. must seem a long time out for you but best of luck to junior tomorrow.

Good to see Padams on the mend.

Dachs.. sorry to hear you're on the bench, sensible decision over Maidenhead though.

Selbs.. must be such a joy being able to run again.  Don't worry about the pace for now, just keep doing what feels comfortable.

HH.. you should have a decent base when you start the faster stuff, some nice big weeks you're putting in.

Charlie.. nicely accelerated 5k!  Best of luck in the half.  Good luck to TT & Al P at Maidenhead as well.

SL.. 17m before breakfast is deserving of extra sugar puffs!  Nice interval session the night before too.

6m up the riverbank trail tonight, came across a dozen or so cows blocking a narrow section so helped a couple of stranded cyclists to shift them by being noisy.  Think I'll have a blast round the Parkrun tomorrow.


06/09/2013 at 22:01

CD - a side effect of antibiotics is that they wipe out good bacteria as well as the bad ones, so the body tends to take a bit of a hit as it tries to re-establish them (plus it's more susceptible to other stuff at the same time).

TR - NF in 2 weeks, is that the HM or the 1/2 IM?

Good news Jools

Cheers Wardi.

06/09/2013 at 22:05

CW - some basic calf stretches and circling the feet.  In addition to that there's one where you stand in the basic calf stretch position with the front leg bent and back leg straight - then put the weight of your body forwards whilst bending your front knee forwards and inwards at the same time.  That one feels a bit weird.  The others he gave me are hip stretches.

06/09/2013 at 22:17

TT - 1/2 IM, i'll be in teh North where HH was, you'll be in the South. Ode was in teh South last yr doing teh mara on teh same day, it pissed it down and blew a hooly, they were dragging folks of the tri course with hypothermia ! Racing on teh same day as me carries bad weather risks !

06/09/2013 at 22:22

Took a wrong turn under the new regime and arrived at work bang on 10 miles. Was trying to take things easy but 7:30 was a real laboured pace. However, clocked 1:14:49 so job done and the legs started to improve as the day went on at work. Rest day at work tomorrow.

06/09/2013 at 23:27

Lev - Legs endurance not leg speed. That's my experience, I know of others who have had it and it fits with your recent return to running but it still could be something different for you.  I haven't been keeping that close an eye on what your training is and can't remember how long you were out injured but if your base is lacking you'll probably get a bigger bang for you buck focusing on that than doing the marathon specific sessions.  Lower injury risk too. 

Selbs - Good to hear from you again.  Hope you can make it back again.

Jools - Good news!

Dachs/CW - Tibialis anterior was what kept me out for 20 months.  It in istelf wasn't the problem though.  It was mostly a glutes problem.  Still not fully resolved but enough that I can run.  If I understand it correctly the TA isn't that strong and if you're having problems with it it's likely that something else isn't working and taking it's share of the strain.

Al_P - Good luck on Sunday.  I'll be watching out for your time.

TT - Sounds like good news on the asthma front.  Hope it keeps that way.  I'm interested to see how you get on at Maidenhead too.  I briefly considered joining in as I was thinking of moving my 18 w/10 @m-pace forward a week because I have a 5 mile race I've committed to doing next week but 2 hours driving each way is more than I can justify. 

Padams - Sound a bit dramatic!  Hope the recovery continues.

A small hiccup in training.  I can't quite work out if it's ITB related but there's a trapped nerve somewhere which is causing me to lose power in my left leg.  I was able to 'run it off' on Wednesday's 14 miler but it was pretty bad trying to  walk the day after and I had to concede defeat after about 3 today.  I'll take another day off and see how I go on Sunday. 

07/09/2013 at 09:13

Dachs - good to get a diagnosis and have a plan.

Interesting to hear about training whilst on antibiotics - someone else told me I would feel very tired too. I feel perfectly well at the moment and the ankle is no longer swollen other than a small lump on the top of the tendon. But will probably give it another day off just in case.

07/09/2013 at 12:14

Padams - its good that you feel well though.

Clearly - hope its not a major issue

Legs were a bit achey still from the mile reps on Thurs, so I put another 20M on them this morning to hit them when they were down. Did some Pete Jacobs stylie strides in the 19th mile too, just to shock the legs a bit more. 

07/09/2013 at 12:56

TT - no offense, but your statement about good bacteria being re-established causing tiredness sounds like the sort of thing a physio/other health charlatan would try to tell you. Is that REALLY what happens? (In fact, does the body make good bacteria, or do they actually multiply themselves?)

You may laugh, but these sort of cranks (not TT, but whoever originally served up this rubbish) serve as a reminder how Nazi Germany went the way it did. Tell one man a convincing lie and the next thing you know genocide results.

This forum appears to have accepted the possibility that antibiotics cause fatigue? Where's the robust defence? Where's the challenge or questions (apart from CD)? Where's the evidence?

Anyone reading this forum (because, incredible as it may seems, sub 3 runners will be on something of a pedestal to other runners) will be influenced by any sort of pseudo-science that's allowed to flourish. Is that a big deal? Yes, as the multi-billion quid money grab from the leeches that live off ignorance around sport proves.

Let's add it to the list shall we?

1. beetroot juice makes you run faster

2. aussie carbo load works

3. ice baths are useful

4. physios should be spared from death by firing squad

5. antibiotics cause tiredness

6. Lord Didsbury won't run 2:35 at Chester

7. Anything my mum tells me



07/09/2013 at 14:00

  Love it! Lying in my hotel room laughing. People will think I'm madder than they already do. 'Who is this guy who runs at 5.30am without a top on before the prostitutes have even gone to bed?' At least they've stopped shouting 'massage' at me as I streak past. They just think I'm odd.

TR you're knocking out 20's? Come on you're going for the marathon aren't you son? I expect to see the back of your shirt at the start but please wait around at the finish to share a pint.


07/09/2013 at 14:58

Thanks Dachs.

I'm with HR, you need to do Abo, TR!

Great stuff Jools, hope the calf gives you no further trouble. (If it did maybe Wardi could scare it away...)

LD -- if Padams isn't careful he'll get fat after the antibiotics. Seriously, all manner of digestive and immune things seem to depend on the collection of gut bacteria one normally has. Don't worry, it could be avoided by caching some of your own "produce" and then doing a DIY faecal transplant...

Did a little taper tune-up this morning only to find my calves a bit stiff -- maybe I shouldn't have sped up at all for the last mile of that 5K. Did 0.25M in 82 sec -- I remember when I could do a small number of those in 67 sec. Oh dear. Never mind, I'll play it by ear in the half tomorrow.

07/09/2013 at 14:58

TR, it sounds like you're in great shape and that your fears of not having the endurance are totally unfounded.  Great reps session and nice 20 miler.  Looking forward to seeing what the next few months bring for you... 

HR, love the images you conjure of the 5:30 starts, and I continue to be impressed by the dedication to put in the sessions in the heat.  Hopefully it will bring rewards when you get back to cooler climes... 

Padams, seems sensible to give it proper time.  Really hope you're back into it soon though and that you're still able to do Kona. 

Clearly, sorry to hear about the niggle and hope it clears up quickly - sounds like you're being sensible about it.   I think you're probably right re leg endurance - I was off for 2 months, but had only really been back into running for a couple of months before that following a more extended break (about 9 months). 

Selbs, great to see you back again.

Jools, really can't wait to hear how the double figure run tomorrow goes. Fingers crossed. 

CW, nicely done on the 5k.  How are you feeling about GER?  (I think that was the race you were targeting).

Al_P and TT, very nice sounding speedy sessions in the run up to Maidenhead.  Give it a blast.  Hope it goes well and I'm only sorry Berlin is 3 weeks away not 4 or I'd be there with you.     SL, great training.  Thanks for the advice too!   Dachs, really hope things clear up soon and you get properly back in the swing for Abo.    Good week HH and hope the parkrun went well Wardi.     This was the last big week pre-taper for me. A total of 59 miles (around peak, which was 62 a few weeks back), mainly comprising Tuesday's 4x18 session, a 7 mile steady run with some strides on Thursday and today's last proper LR.  The plan was not to repeat the big MP chunks I've put in over the last few Saturdays but to do a Canova style 22m w/ 17 or 18 @ around 90% of MP (which works out at around 6.30s).  I was aware of slightly tight legs/hamstrings throughout (perhaps from Thursday's strides - the first time I've done any this cycle) but this wasn't too prohibitive and once I got into the pace, I actually quite enjoyed the run - didn't feel very tough aerobically and seemed to pass quicker than normal slow LRs or LRs with MP chunks in.  Ended up with a total of 23 miles, with a 3 mile steady w/u, 15 averaging 6:30 and then (as I was feeling good) upping it to MP effort for 2.5 miles (came out dead on 5:55s), before trundling slowly home.  Ever so slightly more than I'd promised to myself but not much - and the total time on the feet (2:33) was a bit of a confidence booster as it's the longest I've done.      3 weeks to go and only 2 proper sessions left now, which feels very nice indeed - one of the BAC sandwich sessions on Tuesday (which will prob end up totalling around 20m, with 30 mins / 4 x 5 mins / 30 mins) and then a 17 miler with 13 @ MP next weekend (2 weeks out).  Other than that, taking it very easy, cutting back to prob 45-47 total this week (so little more than those two sessions, a steadyish 6 or 7 miler and a short recovery run).  Hooray!
07/09/2013 at 16:00

Great stuff Lev, nearly cotton wool time now!

Don't fret Charlie, you'll be fine in the morning at the B of the bang.

Clearly.. you're due a bit of niggle free time, hope it's nothing seious.

Nice to bump into BR & Hilly at the Parkrun this morning.  Turns out BR was pacing Hilly at sub 20 pace, plus one of the regulars was official sub 20 pacemaker so we had a nice train engine for the distance.  Had to gurn a bit to stay with the pacemaker in the last k but 19:59 showed that he was only doing what he had to!   25 secs better than last week on a breezier day today so pleased enough with the effort.

Dids.. no pseudo science here, a cup of tea & a Tunnocks Chocolate Tea Cake was my pre-race snack this morning. 

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