Sub 3

For anyone trying to crack the 3 in any marathon anywhere in the world

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12/09/2013 at 11:00

Oh, recoveries were a 3 lap jog in 6:30-7. As a comparison, 12 days before I ran 1m/1.5m/2m/1.5m (6m total) @ 10k effort in 32:20. Last night, for a marginally easier effort (bar the last lap), the total was 31:57.

Edited: 12/09/2013 at 11:03
12/09/2013 at 11:22

sounds a great session TT.  If (big if) i manage to get back to thinking i can run a marathon next year, my plan is Frankfurt as well, as i have a mate who lives there so accomodation/transport sorted (and some people for wife/kid to hang with) plus it happens to fall on my birthday so might be a nice day to get back to marathon's and have a big hooley after!

HR - no i can't imagine shoes will make much difference imo, not being injured, training that you've done and being used to what you will run in might though.

LS21 - nice to see u racking up the miles.  I might make 30 miles this week from 3 runs myself which will be a peak for about 15 months!

JH1 - pity you didn't quite make it, i have seen loads of tri looking folk in national kit (particularly mexico) circling regents park on my couple of morning runs this week. shoudl be a good day on Sunday i might even pop down to watch some. Also woudlnt mind seeing the Haile v Mo v Bekele show that morning.

Padams - i have been looking at HIM summer next year (to help keep me from increasing running too quickly - make me do some biking and swimming!) and spotted the Cotswolds one on 15 June so i might do that or Swashbuckler. i guess the Cotswolds one appeals as a bit earlier in the summer, so will have recovery time before maybe building for a pop at Frankfurt marathon. could all be pie in the sky, probably ruin my knee and hip on next snowboarding trip!

Edited: 12/09/2013 at 11:35
12/09/2013 at 11:58

TT that's a hell of a sesh so soon after the HM. Is this the form of your life?

Cheers Selbs and good points too. 

Just back from the most refreshing recovery double ever: bare chested through an intense tropical downpour. Don't care about the looks and shouts from those sheltering under the awnings: that was bloody marvellous.

Edited: 12/09/2013 at 11:59
12/09/2013 at 12:13

TR -- what's the mileage drop for, tapering for your half? I've lost track. I so want you to do Abo though; I think you're in top form, with some serious speed coming through. If you get a massive lifetime best at Abo, you'll remember it forever, and so will we. If you just get a nice half in, it'll soon pass into history. You know you must do it!

JH1 -- champs entry is open! I'm in. Well, I've submitted my request, anyway.

Nice training LS21 & SJ.

Fine reps there TT. On my shoes, I forgot to check the stitching, but I don't lace them very tight. My problems aren't a chafing effect anyway -- I think it's a bit deep and structural.

postie -- good effort in the MLR. I found my calves were still a bit wooden from my half this morning too. I wasn't sure how long my blister dressing would hold, so I ran fairly directly to work and then didn't stray too far. Ended up doing 7.2 @ 7:07/M or something, a decent steady run, though the blister patch was losing it by the end. Once I've finished scoffing my lunch and reading here, I'll re-dress it and discover whether I've done any new damage. I made a conscious effort to land my R foot differently today, to try and mitigate the problem, but I won't know if that's helped really until it's healed up enough to do some sustained fast running.

12/09/2013 at 12:44

Well finally dedicating more time to marathon running and road running. I even have a coach.I have two HM coming up as prep races Lancaster and Rother Valley. 

My coach seems unimpressed with my clog hopping trail shoes that I use for training and racing. He has mentioned racing shoes. What are they and are they suitable for marathons?

Been great reading about peoples shoes prefernces in the last couple of pages. So far liking the look of the Kinvaras as I think something like the Brooks T7 might be a light for me. Any other recommendations on shoes. Is it better to have a training shoe and racing shoe?

12/09/2013 at 13:11

Fingers crossed you get there for Frankfurt selbs! Nice longer term target to have

HR - no. I have a recollection of doing 6 x 1600m on track averaging 5:11 3 days before running the first Saturday xc of the season and coming 20th, which, I was told at the time that you'd have to be in roughly 32min 10k shape to achieve (first one is always the biggest attended). Unfortunately that was also the race where I developed pneumonia. That was Oct '09 and the start of my succession of sequential (non-running related) problems and, partially through inertia post-knee problems, I've not been near that yet. I do think I've found something that works for me though, so hopefully I can get back to at least that shape and actually reproduce it on the road (as opposed to xc).

12/09/2013 at 13:14

CW - I'd, personally, be really surprised if this was to do with how you plant your foot more than with the combination of trainers and socks. I can appreciate the duration/intensity of a HM might provide the circumstances for it to occur, but in all likelihood, surely something somewhere is not fitting you properly? Have you tried a shoe with a narrower forefoot?

12/09/2013 at 13:18

HR - Quick question, where do you get the older version of the Adios (ie the mk 1) from still? I heard a rumour at one point that it had been re-released under a different name, but never tracked it down....

12/09/2013 at 13:23

Same session as TT for me.  Nice to have someone to chase for a change.  Kept up with him for the first rep (3 miles), although I did have the advantage of sitting out a lap to re-tie my shoelace.  He sailed into the wild blue yonder for the 2 miles (10:59 for me) and 1 mile (5:26) reps though.  Still, I'm pleased with the pace having had very limited running at all, and nothing at any pace, for the last couple of weeks.

12/09/2013 at 13:32

Al_P I've just messaged you with details. Good luck getting them.

TT fair enough. Maybe it's just your consistency then and translating it to races that's so impressive after all this time. That HM was brilliant to see you do.

Edited: 12/09/2013 at 13:32
12/09/2013 at 14:08

HR: any chance of messaging me those details please?

12/09/2013 at 15:56

Had a busy week with work (partly due to only being a 4 day week ), so just managed to catch up with goings on....

HR - Continuing in fine form, very nice period of training from you, should pay dividends!

Tim B - Yes racing shoes are suitable for marathon's, if you have aclimatised to running long distances in them, if you can do 20M in racing flats then a marathon should be ok IMO. Never tried the Brookes T7, but I am currently doing a lot of my easy training runs in Kinvaras (v3). The Kinvara's are nice for this purpose, light and spacious (especially in the toe box), but I won't use them for anything long/fast in general. They have a low heel-toe height difference (4mm), so can be hard on the calves/achilles. Also the grip isn't great off-tarmac or in wet conditions.

Lev - Great session at the weekend, good work on getting the 5min reps sub-HMP, back in the spring we were trying to push the pace as much as possible on the shorter reps in the sandwich sessions

CW - Nasty blister, I can get blister issues on the ball of right foot, probably technique related, but I mitigate by making sure I keep the hard skin on that spot filed down with an emery board, otherwise the top layers detact and form a blister.

Wardi - Good to hear you're getting back on track post virus

TT/Dachs - Tasty speed session last night 

Interesting week for me so far, easy run on Tuesday morning followed by a 'tune-up' Running School form training session, which I decided to do after feeling the lack of drive in my legs in the HM on Sunday. The session was hard work, left my legs a bit jelly-like! It identified that my hip flexors are tight, so I'm now adding in some dynamic pre-run stretches to try to loosen them up. Wednesday's plan was to do a 10+10 double off-raod on forest tracks, paced on feel. Turned out to be surprisingly good runs, I really felt the improvement in the drive from my legs and my form felt much smoother (which I assume was a result of the form practice on Tuesday). Result was a morning 11.2M@6:49/M and the evening run of 11.3M@6:29/M . Effort was easy becoming steady on the first run and steady verging on tempo (by the end) for the second, wsa getting a bit tired by the end! But overall it felt comfy, so hopefully keeping things aerobic...

Got tomorrow off, so planning the first marathon specific session with 4x3M MP as part of 22-23M on the prom in Bournemouth (similar to what I did at the Bramley 20 back in Feb)

Edited: 12/09/2013 at 15:58
12/09/2013 at 17:53

HR - I'm still with LS and Selbs, not sure swicthing to racers will do you any favours and could give you issues, but if you believe that a pair will make you go faster at ABo then thats a good enough reason to get some in itself.

Padams - Swash can only go ahead on certain tidea, and that tide is early July next year. Suits me as its about 12 weeks after VLM, rather than the usual 3 to 5 - which is why I havnt done it for a while. FM weekend is 10 weeks after VLM and theres 3 distances to choose from. 

12/09/2013 at 18:18

SJ - 15M at MP is impressive, and maybe slower than MP after all as I'm not sure anyone can run 15M at MP in training. Interesting re the cramp due to hiily long runs, that would fit for me too. I should run hilly marathons nowadays.

TT - the thought is that he got bitten by something that had bitten cattle or deer. he is 15stone of muscle too, so it would have really knocked out someone smaller .

CW - tapering my running now, trying to up the bike and run frequency until early next week. Not really sure about 1/2 IM tapering run wise as usually a long run in the summer is 10M for me but seeing as I've been doing 20's, I might try to bag a 10 or 12 Saturday or Sunday. I think its a volume thing though really and I need to bike and swim Saturday and or Sunday. Possibly 20 to 30M this week, but only about 15M next week. Abo isnt a focus and never was, the number was to make me run more just in case. The IoW result made me wonder.

12/09/2013 at 18:19

.......Did 6M this morning though (and a mile in the pool - swimming through the letter box !), so 17M for the week with 2 days to go.

12/09/2013 at 19:05

TT -- I've had similar blister problems with a variety of shoes, including narrower Adizero Pro & Hagio. I maybe tend to buy them a little on the large side sometimes, though. Al_P may be on to something about letting a big callous build up, which eventually acts like a slim stone in one's shoe. I do a bit of pumice work but nowhere near enough to stop it building up. Your experience sounds a bit similar, Al. I can see that as a big lump grow further and further from the bottom of the foot, it will be prone to more twisting and shearing relative to the foot underneath.

TR -- cripes, I forgot about your 1/2 IM -- I didn't know what you were tapering for. On current form it should be a goody.

HR -- forgot to comment on your fine training earlier, and TB too -- I'm a big believer in light shoes (yeah that's coming from a man with a massively blistered foot of course). But weight on your foot is very much more significant than weight on your body, as you have to keep accelerating and braking it. I felt guilty when I first got some racing shoes and realised how much difference they made to me. (If that was part placebo rather than physics, who cares? ;- )

12/09/2013 at 21:18

TR - Yes my thoughts were along those lines as well. First mile was a slow warm up and last mile was a trot home so in effect it was really 13 miles at faster than 3 hour pace.. more like 2:54 pace actually. The total 15 miles came out at 3 hour pace. So make of that what you will. I think I'm in 3 hour pace shape so will shoot for that and see what happens I think. 

Re: lightweight shoes etc. I had a play around with Boston's at the beginning of the year in an effort to freshen things up and try and get away from the stability cushioned shoes I had been succesfully advertised into buying for all these years. 

It didn't work really as I have a wide fitting an these sleak racer shoes aren't meant for me I don't think. 

I have comprimised now and run everything in Asics Escel's which I have to say are fantastic. Easily the best shoe I have ever bought. They are a nice inbetween shoe that have just enough heel drop to feel flat and racer-like (compared to stability shoe) but have just enough cushioning (for me at least) to enable me to train for everything in them. 


Edited: 12/09/2013 at 21:19
12/09/2013 at 21:21

On the shoe front i moved from Cumulus to Hyper 33's for training and curantly use a pair of asic Speedstar 5's for races.

10 easyish commute.

12/09/2013 at 21:38

Good to see some progress Selbs.

Padams.. bet you'll be glad to be off the antibiotics, good news.

LS21.. nice comeback miles fella!  Hope you manage to impress the gym bunnies with all the iron pumping!

JH1..good to see you dropping in.  Not sure if 'plonkerish' is a proper word but it certainly ought to be!

HR.. I've done a few marathons in lightweights.. Adidas Rats racer, Nike Ekidens, Lunar Racers.  Feet have been fine afterwards but I did test them over a couple of long runs just to be sure.  Nice running BTW.

SJ.. good marathon training miles, you do seem nicely upbeat about it now.

Al P.. very nice session so soon after the half-m.

TT & Dachs.. very impressive track hamster work!

TT.. I can sort of identify with ' I think things are starting to come around now'  My running has felt like 'driving with the brakes on' since June.  Breathing tight, heavy legs, never felt fresh, paces slow, wanting to stop for a rest etc.  I even got a blood test for iron levels last month as the symptoms were similar, but they came back ok.  However since the weekend something has clicked - I feel like I've got more energy, breathing better, paces quicker etc.  The problem pre-dates the recent virus so I'm not sure why the sudden change.  Maybe Mrs Wardi has injected me with the elixir of youth in my sleep! 

Taking advantage of feeling more spritely, 8.3m last night & 13m around the country lanes & tracks today. 

12/09/2013 at 21:58

About shoes - use adizero adios 2s for road races though not gone further than a 1/2 marathon with them - not sure if I'd want to use something slightly more substantial for longer races (is something like the bostons the next one up in the adizero range?). I really like having separate shoes for speedwork and racing, think it's as much a psychological effect of when you put these shoes on, you will be running fast.

Do most running with mizuno wave inspires - first got them a couple of years ago or so (after running on a treadmill in the shop etc.) and haven't had any problems so just been replacing them with whatever the current version is, moderate to light by normal trainer standards and have a bit of support and cushioning.

Steady 10 miles today after a pretty knackering week (final one of my internship, had to write up everything I'd done over the past 10 weeks) and now just to survive the 12hr drive South - will do a few easy miles in the morning so it's not all spent sitting in the car.

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