Sub 3

For anyone trying to crack the 3 in any marathon anywhere in the world

141 to 160 of 108,393 messages
14/06/2006 at 15:09
odeon,
fwiw my advice would be; do not run a marathon with a heart monitor. do train with a heart montor. first, to make sure your wombles are wombles and to monitor wombling speeds and progress. Second, to gradually build up to 6 to 10 miles at 85(?)% mhr. I haven't got my calculator on me, but 170bpm looks like a marathon effort training pace for you. Therefore start at 160 and work up to 170 over a 6 to 10 mile course.

cartman will be along soon (is he around today?). it's probably best for the rest of us if cartman doesn't read your post.......

ps. I feel like a fraud at the moment cos I'm totally wrapped up with my cycle training, so no running for me.
14/06/2006 at 15:20
ODE Glad CM's away he'd bamboozle you with Thresholds, lactic juices and aerobicity in a trice! I think the general rule of thumb (like there is one when it comes to optimal Mara training) is :-

Run lots of miles @ ~75%MHR
Run ~25% of miles @ ~MaraPace (check HR is <88%)
Chuck in the odd race, interval session or full on (eye)balls out blast upto 10miles. (P&D do some mile reps, 10mile pace work etc)

BTW MaxHR is not affected by fitness - it's kind of genetic and 88% is the theoretical optimum for the aerobic monster not likely to be attainable by us halfwits.

n2TdF starts soon so I'm gonna get my bike out (just after I've put my Wimbledon inspired tennis racket away) me thinks and also sit in the gym on the bike watching the ITV3/4 highlights for an hour a day - still hope to keep up the (running) miles though.
14/06/2006 at 15:50
Cheers folks.

Have read a couple of CM's posts on other forums and know he's da man.

Thx Crab. Always thought fitness affected MHR ie bigger, stronger heart etc. When 21 got 203 on Run, but biking was never able to go beyond 191. Talking of which I have been caught watching Tdf in full lycra (helmet and shoes included) as highlights started just as leaving for ride (that's my story and I'm sticking to it)
14/06/2006 at 15:52
RB - yes you know me well but you are a little too generous in your estimate of 2.55. I predict 34.45 for you for Sunday.

JEJ - Thanks for the advice . I am caught in the same dilemna you suggest. I have run for more than 10 years but used to train 20 -25 miles a week. In the last 18 months I have increased mileage and run Pb's at 10k and half. Last 4 months have seen me loosely follow P&D less than 70 miles but also dip onto Hard training thread as a lurker.
Edinburgh seemed easy up to 20 miles (2.16)then slowed alittle up to22(2.31) then faded over last 4.Do I need more long runs or to do them a little faster? Did 6 or 7 over 20 miles at roughly 7.40 per mile.
14/06/2006 at 16:31
goals 7:40 per mile sounds ok to me. I did my long runs at about that pace when I was creeping into sub 3 shape. If you have a HRM this pace should be < 75% of max.

ODE If anything you'll find max HR goes down a beat or two with increased fitness - simply because it takes a much greater effort to push your CV system to the max than if you're not fit.
14/06/2006 at 16:42
JEJ !!Pedant alert!! So you're saying it stays the same it's just harder to attain.
14/06/2006 at 16:58
creeping into sub 3 shape

JEJ You galloped sub 3 in under 12 months. I'm still creeping after almost 3 years. Not certain that I'm not grovelling now.
14/06/2006 at 17:02
CRAB Firstly I'm saying nothing; I'm typing. Secondly it may be physiologically impossible to attain the 'untrained' max HR.

A ~2:30 marathoner from my club has been unable to run or partake in serious exercise for about a year. A couple of weeks ago he excitedly texted a club coach as he'd hit a new HR max (5 beats higher) when out cycling, even though he wasn't pushing that hard. He thought it was a good thing, and it meant that he was underestimating his running potential. Sadly that's unlikely to be the case.
14/06/2006 at 17:48
No dusty bin for me; I thought I did 03.02.01 in Edinburgh - it seems the heat was affecting my eyesight. It was 03.02.09; can't see a game show coming out of that one.

Gambling on the WC is just about covering my physio costs at the moment. Not sure if next weekend's 100 miler is going to happen now due to ankle/achilles/tarsal injury, but I'll decide after the weekend.
14/06/2006 at 18:07
Hail Hail

Sitting on the lav whilst placing your bets eh Dan? Whatever floats your boat. At least you're winning!
14/06/2006 at 21:43
I've decided to throw the HR in the bin for the next few weeks cos;

a) this heat is playing havoc with my paces
b) my coach told me to :-)

only 4 weeks training left, and 6 weeks to my time bomb goes off and not a moment too soon wither I can tell you.

odeon + numbers, sounds like you have had good advice from the Crab already. Oh how times have changed.. I think we should come up with some other form of training so we can get back to the good old days of arguing and insults..

JEJ, each discipline has its own max HR, i.e. its very unusual for max Bike HR == max Run HR. Thats said though, its even more unusual for max Bike HR > max Run HR.

Why am I humming Tom Jones songs now ?!?!?

DanA, do you ever plan to do the GUC ? After reading this years reports (and the fantastic win by MtB) I'm half pencilling it in for a fews year down the line..
14/06/2006 at 22:05
After some advice for a sub-3hr marathon -Running Bhoy. I did 3 08 25secs for edinburgh, struggled badly from 22 miles. ?due to heat. Training went well, thought I may get close to 3hr. Thought EB was a fast course as promoted as 3rd fastest in UK?? Not sure how much effect the heat had.Did FLM in 1994 (308also, but not seriously trained for). Been running more seriously sine October last (dabbled a bit over the years) Now 41. 10km 38m13. 1/2 marathon 85MINS.
When would you suggest doing another marathon (?under 3 hrs) Have entry for NY (for the experience) and have guarantted for FLM 2007. Any advice appreciated
14/06/2006 at 22:11
this is interesting (picked up from another fred)

sub 35m min 10k schedule for those currently running sub 38 (prob equates to sub 3 marathon sort of level).

Any thoughts ? at first glance it looks like less miles than I currently do, and I've cut back loads recently anyway, and I'm not sure all those rest days are needed. But also interesting to see it still got its fare share of "easy" running.
14/06/2006 at 22:44
AY4 - not sure if I'm the best to offer advice on the subject, but I'd deffo get an October marathon in (either Cardiff or Abingdon) for your serious sub-3 attempt.

Use NY as a bit of a holiday. I've done NY twice (plus going out again this year), and it is the proud custodian of my two slowest times - no point trying to scientifically analyse it, but if it's any guidance, I did 3.44 at NY, then two weeks later did a 1.21 half!! That said, NY is fkg brilliant - London on steroids.
15/06/2006 at 00:00
CM- Just read thread "balance your training with your lifestyle"

I wanna sub 2.20 but also have a life!

Still, fully aware not born at the deep end of the gene pool so I'll just have a life instead.

AY4- Grt time 24-26 beastly. Have added you to list.

2006 Apr 2:44:20 London JEJ
2006 Apr 2:44:25 London CY
2006 Apr 2:46:46 Paris Running Bhoy
2006 Apr 2:48:43 London B&R
2006 Apr 2:52:33 London davidt
2006 Apr 2:52:38 London nigelj
2006 Apr 2:54:33 London Tmap
2006 Apr 2:55:23 London OuchOuch
2005 Oct 2:55:51 Cardiff CRAB
2006 Apr 2:56:05 London batfink
2006 Apr 2:56:06 London hilly
2006 Apr 2:56:24 London Gold Rush
2006 Apr 2:56:36 London OMFA
2005 Dec 2:58:18 Luton Cartman
2006 Apr 2:58:44 London Mrs Tricks
2006 Apr 2:58:49 London Vassy
2006 Apr 2:59:10 London ScottyB
2006 Apr 2:59:36 London Jason Harris 1
2005 Oct 3:01:54 Cardiff Dull Napoleon
2006 Jun 3.02.01 Edinburgh Dan A
2006 Apr 3:03:09 London Bubblecop
2006 May 3:04:18 Halstead That Boy Sure Is A Running Fool
2006 Apr 3:06:44 London NL
2006 Apr 3:06:51 London nichs2
2005 Oct 3:07:29 Abingdon Gobi
2006 Jun 3:07:47 Edinburgh goals
2006 May 3:08:42 Vienna Aitch S
2006 Jun 3:08:25 Andrew Yates 4
2006 Apr 3:11:15 London Blisters
2006 Apr 3:12:47 London NDOW
2006 Apr 3:15:01 London Impossible is Nothing
2006 Apr 3:16:31 Rotterdam nrg-b
2006 Jun 3:19:52 Edinburgh Odeon1085

Forthcoming Events

2006 Jun Pennine 100 Dan A
2006 Jul IMDE Toucan
2006 Jul 50m Challenge G.R
2006 Jul IMDE Cartman
2006 Aug Boddington 50K Gobi
2006 Aug Hood To Coast (USA) Running Bhoy
2006 Oct Cardiff NM2
2006 Oct Cardiff NDOW
2006 Oct Cardiff CRAB
2006 Oct Cardiff OuchOuch
2006 Oct Cardiff WW
2006 Oct Cardiff Odeon1085
2006 Oct Abingdon Dull Napoleon
2006 Oct Abingdon Blisters
2006 Oct Abingdon Brucey Bonus
2006 Oct Dublin Cartman
2006 Oct Dublin CRAB

Cut and paste Happy at this time of night:

Goals- 34.45
NM2- 34.58
DN - 35:10
JEJ- 35.14
Ode- 35.26


15/06/2006 at 07:27
AY4 Well done on your Edinburgh time.

The heat probably was a factor but seems to be a bigger issue for some more than others as comments on this fred show. Common consent seems to be you need to do a half in under 1:23 to have a shot at sub3 though there are aerobic monsters who are exceptions to this. If thats not a set up for a Hadd link I don't know what is.

What sort of mileage where you doing in training and at what pace, and then those with more knowledge than me will be able to offer more thoughts??
15/06/2006 at 08:08
CM That stuff's complete toilet. I used it two years ago to take me from 47mins 10k to 40mins in 6weeks and it failed by about 3minutes if my memory serves me correctly - managed the first ~4k on target but then the only person I overtook over the next 6k was lying next to an ambulance. Oooh what a numpty I was back in day, 7minutes improvement in 6 weeks - come to think of it the times have improved a bit but not training knowledge, realistic time targets or pacing at the start of races!
15/06/2006 at 16:23
where is everyone today ? i finally track you down only to find no-one at home.

not much running to report but penty of sleep deprivation going on.

what little running i've done has been fine...no sign of shin pslints but achiles and PF worse than ever. Got second podiatrist appointment sorted out to mkae a cast of my foot for custom/prescription orthotics (shudders at price) but hopefully this will be a long term solution. Having seen myself run on slo mo video I can now see where all my problems come from.

my left arch collapses as soon as weight goes on them so my plantar fascia is under a lot of stress, being strained excessivly with every foot plant.

my right foor is even stranger. quite severe pronation at the rear foot (leading to achiles problems) but with supination at the front due tot he fact that my first 2 toes are lower down than the little 3, leading tot he forefoot being at an angle(i've always felt as though I run on the outside of my feet...but never realised this was coupled with a pronation problem at heelstrike.

Still feels like orthotics are a bit of a gamble...especially for what they're costing...but the engineer in me is hoping that the cause-effect nature of the problems i've got will be fixed/alleviated by some arch support ont he left and some rearfoot pronation moderation and some forefoot wedges on the right. Fingeres crossed.

CRAB...are you planning on doing Dublin now then ?
15/06/2006 at 22:00
d07 Cripes don't become to gait analysis what CM is to cardiology! Sounds fascinating you two will have a blast in Dublin comparing labcoats. Hope the orthotics do the necessary. Good to hear someone trying to do something proactive about their pf rather than banging out the miles and occasionally moaning about it (un)surprisingly not clearing up. Talking of which think I'm gonna give the old ~3mile race a go tomorrow.

Don't worry Cardiff is the probability while Dublin remains just a possibility.
16/06/2006 at 06:52
d07, good to hear from you, and that baby07 is clearly fit and hearlthy. Thats better, things have been a bit weird round here without somebody continually whinging about foot related issues, sounds like you have enough to keep us going for another 12 months !

seriously though, do hope they clear up. Achilees one is weird cos that usually does clear up with rest, but unfortunately can get irrated quite a lot with Nadding...

Good luck tomorrow Grab, I say 17:10 on the nose..
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