Sub 3:15 - FLM 2009

I hope so kr but I mean really focus on that shorter distance speed ala Monaghan's advice some time back. If I continued doing two marathons a year with the same sort of build up then I would ultimately get to the point that I'll plateau. And as I've had good improvements thus far next summer may be the time to change the approach a little.

AoE - if this snow doesn't stop I might not make VLM never mind Brass Monkey!

Hello all,

Really impressed with everyone's training - not an easy thing to do in the awful conditions. Some really great mileage being put in though.

Not been around for a few days as I left my computer at work Wednesday evening to then find work was closed for 2 days due to the ice and snow. Wooo Hooooo!! Still, a few days away from the computer was a refreshing change.

Joolska:  Wow, I adore the Avon Gorge and having a step-daughter at UWE, so I'm in Bristol and Clifton at least 3 times a year.  Love the place (although the Clifton Suspension Bridge is a little high and I have problems crossing it by foot!!)

Well, had my second physio appointment on Friday evening (had to walk to the hospital as the roads were so bad). It took me 25 minutes to complete the first mile as the pavements were sooo treacherous and a total of an hour and 10 mins to complete a 2 and a quarter mile journey!  Still, it was really worth it as I'm really feeling the benefit of the ultrasound therapy.  Feeling so much better although Mr Physio man has still banned me from running for a few weeks yet.  Have to say though, I'm just getting so excited at the prospect of even a little running in the coming weeks. WOOOOOO HOOOOOO!!!!!!  It is such a relief to actually feel that I'm finally healing.  After 10-12 weeks of little or no improvement it really starts to "play with your head".

Of course once back, I'll have to build training VERY carefully and small steps at a time but I really hope to be back out there "tempoing" by March. SOOOOO EXCITED!!!!!

You never know, I might even be able to post some miles and times myself soon!!

Keep smiling all.

That Boy

As mentioned in my posting after the 10K yesterday, I said I was going to dramatically change my training plan for VLM, I am looking for the collective wisdom of you guys, I personally think something needs to change for me and am willing to try something new.
I don't want to make this all about me, me, me but can't think of a way in which it doesn't so here goes.

History:
I started general running in 2006, broke my fibula and gave up until I got a place in FLM 2007, I then followed a 16 week FIRST Program where I averaged 20.02 Miles per week (Highest 35.5/Lowest 0 due to a few newcomer injuries along the way) with one long run of 20 miles. I finished 2007 VLM in 3:29:18 and did a half in 1:33.

Did sporadic amounts of running (max 40 miles a month) for a few years and cycle commute to work, then got a place in VLM 2009, again followed the FIRST 16 Week Plan, average of 24.83 Miles for 10 weeks before injury struck again (Highest 35/Lowest 10, at least I did 3 x 20 Mile runs this time) and deferred entry through to VLM 2010.

Current Ideas:
From the above and from peoples plans on here, I know I need to run more miles, also, I ran most of the above at between PMP + 15 to 70 seconds per mile, as per the FIRST plan, but I am thinking this may have been the cause of the injuries that I got in both plans..Therefore I am looking to ditch the current plan and following on from advice on here, start on the P & D 'upto 55 mile' plan, I have ordered the book which should come this week

I can commit to 5 days a week of running with Monday and Friday as rest days, Tuesday and Sundays I can do long runs upto 3 hours, by the way it took me ages to get agreement from the missus on that bit!

Current Training:
Average 30+ miles for last 5 weeks, with a good aerobic base from cycle commute (16 miles each way upto 4 days a week)

Questions:
Do people think this is wise move to change this close to the start of the plan?
Shall I do a 'test' week, this week, which repeats the first week of P & D schedule to see if my body can handle it?
As my longest weeks have been c. 35 miles, do tyou think my body will just say no if if it is a lot slower
What type of pace should I be doing recovery runs at. 8:30 M/M? Higher?
Should I just take up tiddlywinks?
Has anybody got a link or can pm me the first week of the upto 55 plan?

Thanks for your help all and sorry for the length!!

RJ - If you're thinking of focussing on 10k/5k etc you should drop in and look at Stevie G's Moraghan training thread sometime. Interesting to see what he's got him doing. Very different to what we're all doing

Steve - My initial reaction at your background is what a bad time you've had with injuries so I'd have thought the priority with any plan is to stay injury free. Bearing in mind you can commit 5 days "only" you'd presumably be dropping one of the recovery type runs in P and D and hence max-ing at about 50 miles per week. I do slightly worry the jump from 30 to high 40s is too much for you and runs the risk of injury. That happened to me due to over mileage when I first tried the P and D 55-70 programme. On the basis of 10 per cent increase every 3 to 4 weeks- if you're doing low 30s now I wouldn't think low 50s in a few weeks is realistic. Can you do VLM as a test marathon and spend the summer building the base injury-free to have a tilt at an Autumn mara ? 

I know alot of folk on here recommend recovery runs to be REALLY slow. I struggle to do them as slow as I know I should cos I find my gait is weird if I go too slowly. I'm trying to get better at that

Don't think a test week is really valid - it's more the overall load of week in week out (almost) doubling your mileage which is the issue

Don't take up tiddlywinks just yet !

That Boy - I may have misread your post but I sense you're feeling quite positive at the moment Good stuff.

Steve - What might be an idea, following on from what Fraser has said, is to get P&D and have a good read through to see what it actually entails. There is a lot of 'general aerobic' running, which most would do at a fairly easy pace. Obviously you want to get the longer runs in so following the <55 plan might be loosely possible if you knock one of the aerobic runs on the head each week, in favour of rest or cross training. They tend to be around 8-11 miles I think (don't have it in front of me). Also, I think the <55 starts at about 38mpw so following that as 'a tester' won't give you any reliable information.

I think Keir has a naughty online link to the training plans from a website where they were reviewed.

Fraser Wells wrote (see)

I know alot of folk on here recommend recovery runs to be REALLY slow. I struggle to do them as slow as I know I should cos I find my gait is weird if I go too slowly.

Or too fast High cadence, head up and concentrate on form, Mr Wells!

Cheers B and B - Quite rightly I can see I'll never be allowed to live those shocking pictures down  ! Concentrating on staring straight ahead at the gym wall these days....

Steve - I've got to go but I will write you a reply this evening as you're in a similar place to where i've been with the FIRST schedule and the results you've got were similar to mine not that long ago.

Chat laters

Laptop screwed at home so writing this on wife's itouch. Steve i'll have to do this tomorrow if that's ok?

Steve, first week of P&D:

Monday   Rest or cross-training

Tuesday  Lactate Threshold  8miles with 4 miles @ HM pace

Wednesday  Rest or cross-training

Thursday  General Aerobic  9 Miles

Friday  Rest or cross-training

Saturday  Recovery 4M

Sunday   Medium-long run 12M

Weekly Mileage   33

Jase/Minni - transfers are ok at BM. I have the organiser's email address and what info they need if you're doing a transfer. Let me know.

-12 this morning, and don't think it got much above -3 all day. Went out, Microspiked up for 5 on the canal with my mate The Herb. Very steady as he's on the comeback trail, and unfortunately his comeback came to a painful end after 4.5m when he seemed to tear a calf muscle quite badly. He walked back - i finished in about 40 mins.

Very impressed with the Microspikes - absolutely secure on sheet ice and great on hard-packed snow.

Blisters and beer wrote (see)

I think Keir has a naughty online link to the training plans from a website where they were reviewed.

Spank my bottom and call me Mildred

Evening all, Good racing Steve even though you were a little dissapointed with your time.  I've had similar concerns in the past with getting injured during training for marathons -  which I now put down to running too many of the runs too quickly.  Thatboy - good news on our rehab.

7 miles for me yesterday including 10 x 2 mins hill repeats.  Went out 4 mile slow tonight. Both runs were a bit difficult with the odd slippy area.  Temp down here is n't going to get above freezing all week but at least the snow/ice has mainly cleared so I can get out and give the treadie a miss. 

If only we had some snow I'd be tempted to try the Microspikes myself Andy

Steve - The P&D Up to 55 programme is based on 5 days running per week and the first block of 7 weeks starts at 33 miles and increases to 45 miles before a cut-back week of 37 miles.   The next block has weekly mileages of between 43 and 55 miles.   So, given you've been doing 30+ mile weeks, I think you could cope with the schedule if you felt it was right for you and were sufficiently motivated.  The important thing would be make sure you're conservative on the paces for that initial 7 week block and to run the recovery runs really slow.

Blimey Barry B, hill reps on the ice - are you crazy! Good session though .  I've not got access to a dreadmill, so have been going out with my Salomons on which has been fun in a strange sort of way. All last week, it has just felt like keeping the motor ticking over rather than doing any proper training. Maybe that's not a bad thing in prep for a 16 week build up?

SBD - Not having got a copy of the P&D book, what is the target time of the up to 55 programme aimed at - sub 3.15 I gather?

No target times in P&D IIRC.  I found that helped - I never got bogged down in a session having to be run at a particular pace and just ran by feel

Yes - no mention of target times but recommended paces of runs are geared to your Goal Marathon Pace.  I'm sure a lot of the people using the schedule would be looking for sub 3:15 but I would also expect a few manage sub 3:00

Thought I'd try a treadmill tempo today - I must be mad but I'm quite looking forward to it

Steve What is causing all these injuries? You mention that you took up running then broke your fibula, then you got “newcomer injuries” in the lead up to 2007, then you got injured again in the build up to FLM 2009. First thing is to get checked over by a good physio and see what the problem is. There’s no point jumping into a high mileage (for you) schedule if you can’t cope with a 3 run per week programme. If it means you spend more money on physio / sports massage / gait analysis than running eqpt then so be it. Remember to finish the race you have to start it!That aside, there’s not a lot wrong with doing 3 runs a week (MP session, intervals and long run) as long as you do the long run at MP + 60secs. If you’re hurtling round your 20 milers in 2h25mins then you’re essentially doing a 20mile MP session every week and it’s no surprise you’re getting injured. I followed a similar programme prior to FLM 2009 and got round in 3h19. I made mistakes in that my long runs were at MP + 20secs, I ran a 20miler at faster than MP 5 weeks prior to FLM and then raced 4 times in the final 4 weeks including a 5.37 mile leg at the road relays 8 days before. Surprise, surprise I was tired on the day!

In my opinion you need to follow a fairly simple programme:

Mon: rest day
Tues: run of (max) 2hrs – your semi-long run
Wed: aerobic run
Thu: aerobic runFri: rest day
Sat: easy run
Sun: long run

The important days are Tues and Sunday if these are the days you can get long runs in. The long run is the most important run of the week, the semi-long run is the second, the rest of the week is filler. You should look at the above as the “ultimate” where you’re doing this in weeks 10-13 of a 16 week programme. From now you’ve got 2 weeks before you would start a 16 week programme leading into London so use the next 14 days wisely to just log some more time on feet at an easy/steady pace so around 8m27s pace. Don’t go mental but do try to get a 2hr run in at some point.
When you start the 16 week schedule, ease into it so Tues would be an hour and Sunday 1h45mins - 2hrs and add on 15mins to each run each week to make sure you could cope with it until you’ve got to 2hrs Tues and 20miles on Sunday (both at 8m27s pace). Don’t do a 20 miler every week – alternate them so it’s 20/16/20/16 etc. The idea is to bank 3 to 4 x 20 miler and maybe 1 x 22 if you’re feeling good in week 13.After 3 weeks take a cut back week in week 4, then get back on it in week 5, 6 and 7 before a cut back week in week 8 then you’re getting close to “Monster Month” in weeks 10-13 before a 3 week taper
I wouldn’t touch MP work until week 5 and even then just look at introducing 15min blocks of 7m27s pace in your semi-long run to make sure you can handle it. Ideally your MP work would be building up to running a HM at MP 6 weeks out. Can you find a HM on the weekend of 5th/6th March? You could combine it with a 2 mile w/up and 2 mile w/down to make a nice long run
As for mileage, slowly slowly is the name of the game. You can go sub 3h15 off an average of 40mpw over the 16 weeks but within that you will need quite a few weeks of 50mpw+. However if you’re knocking out a 20 miler, a 15 miler and 3 other runs of around an hour that will be achievable very easily.Do get P&D, do read it through but remember you’re aiming at sub 3h15 so don’t get sucked into the high mileage stuff just yet. Just get through this campaign injury free first, get the sub 3h15 done and away you go.Any questions on the above let me know and we’ll see if we can work this out with the collective wisdom of the thread

Flooping freezing here, up North. 8 slip slidey miles home last night at an easy pace, although it never feels comfortable with a rucksack.

SBD - Isn't this the looking forwad to it face? Good luck on the treddie.

Nice hills from you, BarryB.

Thanks for that Mildred. If only I had the arms of Mr Tickle