Sub 3:15 - FLM 2009

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07/12/2010 at 09:53

Oh well, Mildred, you probably deserve it as you've done some high mileage recently.

Excellent advice provided, MM. The only thing this cheeky upstart would say is, with Steve being prone to injury, a lactate threshold might be more advisable and just as beneficial as the intervals.

07/12/2010 at 10:01
Blisters - the above is more a general piece showing how Steve could raise his game in the context of the information he's provided and from what I've learnt on my journey to get sub 3h15. I'm happy to help him flesh it out with more detail via the thread as there have to be plenty of lurkers on here, just as there are on the sub 3 thread so this is as much for the non-posters as for the actual posters.
I think most of us here are in agreement as to what works, it's just the volume that differentiates us. I think even Ant knows that doing lots of running at near MP may bring you success but it's not realising your full potential.
The above is pulled more from the sub3h15 RW schedule with the lessons learned from Liz Yelling and Race Jase this year. Get the base in, get as much endurance in on a regular basis as you can afford and then practice, practice, practice your MP as much as you can
07/12/2010 at 10:16
MM - Yip, fair enough! You don't think people are actually reading what I type, are they?
07/12/2010 at 10:22
Blisters and beer wrote (see)
MM - Yip, fair enough! You don't think people are actually reading what I type, are they?

No, it's just the 15 of us who read this inane drivel on a daily basis
07/12/2010 at 10:54
Thanks for all your responses and advice, much appreciated

Minni: Thanks for posting the first week of P & D
Fraser: Agree, its more about me staying injury free and getting to the start line in one piece. I think slower runs may help that.
SBD: Thanks for the info, the upto 55 plan does seem to fit my requirements, there should be no problem with the motivation, I have killed the CNBA fairy.
MM: to yur first question, not sure what is causing the injuries, the first one (broken fibula, was caused by being stupid and doing multiple hard days in a row, I come from a cycling background and this worked there, to a degree), the 2007 one was just not that bad, can't remember what it was now, but looking at my old plans, I missed two or three weeks at a crucial time. and 2009 was caused by going fast all the time and getting a small stress fracture. I do have regular 5 weekly sports massages

As an FYI on my recent training, I have been doing regular 15 milers for the last month or so at or under 8 M/M pace, with the tuesday runs of 11 or 12 miles at between 7 to 7:20 M/M Pace, which I know is too fast but as mentioned am very happy to slow down!

In regards to the plan, it looks good, and it can certainly fit in with my lifestyle, I will look at that combined with P & D book, I have a few questions though:I have 4 races entered over the next 4 months as below, would you recommend doing those as MP pace runs or running along at 8:27 as per long runs (this may be difficult for the 10K!) 

2nd Jan - 10K
23rd Jan - Dartford 10 Miles (Hilly!)
27th Feb - Roding Valley Half (Hilly!)
20th Mar - Brentwood Half

What pace should the easy and or aerobic runs be done at?, I intend to do some of these on the treadmill as it convenient for me being at the end of the garden.

To the people who have followed P & D before, what results did you get, following it (preferably the upto 55 schedule) 
Edited: 07/12/2010 at 10:55
07/12/2010 at 11:11
What a lovely catch up read I just had! Too many things to refer to so will just say: (i) as a fellow injured runner, hurrah That Boy seems to be on the mend; (ii) so many great runs, treadmill based or otherwise, are being logged; and (iii) is it me, or can I sense the pre-spring marathon training excitement building up? I am very grateful to MM for the ongoing commentary on various things and will be certain to take note when I start my Up To 55 P&D schedule next week. Thanks to Steve for his questions and I will be following your progress with interest as many of your circumstances bear some relevance to me.

I managed a slow 10 miles on Sunday (averaging 9m/m) and a notquitesoslowbutstillquiteslow 7 miles this morning (averaging 8m/m). My knee is still niggly but having had a tweak by the physio on Friday and a biomechanical assessment yesterday, I am more confident I can make sure it doesn't stop the marathon training. I am probably going to go down the orthotics route despite swearing I would try not to but it appears I have a structural cause which no manner of glute work will compensate for. The good news to this is that once I have them I can look at wearing neutral shoes, and racing shoes! No more clunky stability shoes for this gal
07/12/2010 at 11:12

Steve Not much to add, but as someone who is currently 5 weeks intp P&D upto 55 from an average base of 25/30 miles per week, I would agree with SBD. I believe it is possible, for 2  simple reasons. You have stated you don't count recovery runs in your miles, this is 10 miles of the schedule, plus slowing all runs down makes them a lot easier to manage in terms of tiredness for next training. Great advice and balanced infomation from MM.

8 miles for me last night with 10 x 100m strides, in glorious sunshine and +18 degrees along the beach front.

Arrived back home late last night to -5 degrees and fog. Currently sat in the house scared to go out.

07/12/2010 at 11:28

Your long runs are still too fast! Long runs and semi-long runs should be done at MP + 60 secs as you're trying to log easy time on feet to build your endurance rather than viewing it as a necessary evil which should be over and done with asap.
As a comparison I'm hoping to log ~ 55miles this week and apart from the hard bits during the club session tomorrow night I'm not going to be going faster than 8m00s pace - in fact last night's 5 miler was at 8m35s pace. I'm aiming at a sub 85min HM in 10 weeks time.

As for the races:
2nd Jan - 10K run it as a test to see where you are fitness wise (hopefully long 39mins?)
23rd Jan - Dartford 10 Miles (Hilly!) Comes at the end of week 4 so use it as a test of form having had a cutback week.
27th Feb - Roding Valley Half (Hilly!) Treat this as a training run, don't taper down for it, run it at slower than MP and use it as a good workout within the context of a long run
20th Mar - Brentwood Half. Use this as the MP run that decides your MP for London. It's only 4 weeks from London so the result may well be compromised because it falls at the end of week 12 when you should be in the middle of racking up some good mileage but it will give you a good feel for what you're capable of.

07/12/2010 at 11:31
SteveC1975 wrote (see)
MM: to yur first question, not sure what is causing the injuries, the first one (broken fibula, was caused by being stupid and doing multiple hard days in a row, I come from a cycling background and this worked there, to a degree), the 2007 one was just not that bad, can't remember what it was now, but looking at my old plans, I missed two or three weeks at a crucial time. and 2009 was caused by going fast all the time and getting a small stress fracture. I do have regular 5 weekly sports massages

Yeah cycling a no-impact sport and you canget away with a lot more hard work but running is different for obvious reasons. You'd be wise to exercise caution if you feel a niggle or cold coming on during your VLM build-up - better to take 3 days off than have to miss a week or two.

The sports massage is a great thing and something I sued to great effect for VLM '10. I was having them every 2 weeks and it helped to nip problem areas in the bud. I'd suggest you bring the massages forward to a similar schedule

07/12/2010 at 11:31

Welcome home Scooby! Horrible innit?

Sounds like positive news for you MsE.  Your 7 miles were the same pace as my 8 last night so definitely nothing wrong with that!

07/12/2010 at 11:42

2nd Jan - 10K
23rd Jan - Dartford 10 Miles (Hilly!)
27th Feb - Roding Valley Half (Hilly!)
20th Mar - Brentwood Half

Just some online scribblings for you to think about:
16 week VLM 11 build-up:
Week 1 - Base / Endurance.Race 10k flat out
Week 2 - Base / Endurance
Week 3 - Base/ Endurance
Week 4 - Cut back week. Race Dartford 10 miles flat out - assess fitness and training paces off the back of this
Week 5 - Start introducing MP work and by now you should be up to 18 miles as a long run
Week 6 - First 20 miler
Week 7 - 16 mile long run
Week 8 - 20 miler
Week 9 - Roding Half within 16/17 mile long run. Treat it as a training run, not a race.
Week 10 - 20 miler
Week 11 - 20 miler
Week 12 - cut back week taper into Brentwood HM at MP
Week 13 - heaviest week in terms of volume - 22 miler
Week 14 - 75% of week 13
Week 15 - 50% of week 13. Sunday run = 1hour easy
Week 16 - light week, some MP intervals on Weds, nothing heavy.

That gives you scope to miss a 20 miler if things go against you and you still get the 5 x long runs = 100 miles. Following this gives you 102 miles as your 5 longest runs backed up with those mid-week semi-long runs

07/12/2010 at 11:51
Weeks 1 - 5 - start your long runs at 15 miles, add 1 mile a week until you reach 18 miles at week 5
Week 1 - 15 miles
Week 2 - 16 miles
Week 3 - 17 miles
Week 4 - 12/13 miles (includes 10 mile race)
Week 5 - 18 miles

Don't go mental the first 3/4 weeks - you're building time on feet first and foremost and you should simmer your way to fitness (sound familiar people? )
Weeks 6- 9 - Bank the 20 milers and by now your semi-long runs should be in the region of 2hrs max
.Start introducing MP work in this period. Treating week 9 as a cut back week would be a good idea here
Week 10 - 13 - biggest weeks in terms of volume and hard work
Week 14-16 classic 3 week taper
07/12/2010 at 11:55
With Christmas falling at the end of the week before the 16 week schedule starting (Mon 27th Dec) and you've been logging some good 35mpw recently then why not take that week of 20-26 Dec as a rest week? Liz had me do similar last year and it does give you a mental and physical break going into your VLM 11 training instead of trying to squeeze in runs over the festive period. You won't lose fitness and you'll be better for the break in my experience.
07/12/2010 at 12:30

MM - You are a beautiful man.

Steve - There is some excellent advice here. Like you, I am used to smacking myself regularly on the bike and one of the hard things to adjust to with running is getting used to not being able to do this without injury. I reckon you are in a good position to start the P&D plan. The link I put up yesterday (here it is again if you missed it) is for the 55-70 plan. Very similar really, just a few extra miles added on.

I am probably doing the Dartford 10m, probably on the back of a slightly easier week as well. See you there

Scooby - Wrap up warm

MsE - Orthotics sorted me out (and Fraser as well I think). Think positive, once you have them you can buy lots of expensive racing shoes which only last 100 miles!

B&B - Don't worry. I just ignore whatever you type

07/12/2010 at 13:20

MM - Many words of wisdom there - must copy and paste into my ongoing “Word doc of Wisdom” file.

Scooby - Did you get a sun tan? I bet you're wearing a tight white t-shirt today to show it off!

No running for me last night, but going down the Club tonight and see what's on offer. My wife is working late this week a few more times (run up to Xmas) so it looks like I'll have to get a few more late night in - no change there then!

07/12/2010 at 14:19
Experienced marathoners/endurance athletes of the forum! Please can you talk to me about The Wall? I have just watched some clips on YouTube and one, in particular, of Paula Newby Fraser in 1995 was not pleasant to see. What is the best way to ensure I avoid this in April and during my HIM? I have a feeling that a combination of training and fuel is the answer...?
07/12/2010 at 14:20
This is going to be a set of me,me,me posts but now seems a good time to put them up. The following is a document I wrote pre-Abo 2009 and have updated to include London 10 and Chester 10. It shows the pitfalls and mistakes I've made and the lessons I've learned on the way to a sub 3h15 time
07/12/2010 at 14:20
I came into running from being an average club cyclist who was used to training anything from 6 to 14 hr weeks. I started cycling 1992 as a 19yr old and continued without any breaks until 2005. I was aerobically fit and had personal bests of 22m42s for 10 miles and 59m36s for 25 miles. I had as recently as 2007 done the Tour of Flanders sportif (160 miles in 10hrs over the same course the professionals race over) so had a good level of fitness. I had started running in 2005 when my first child was born and started racing in local events in 2006 (5 miles in 36m26, 10k in 47m47s and HM in 1h46m) but took things a bit more seriously in 2007 when I joined a local club. I got my times down to 19m55 for 5k, 33m09s for 5miles, 43m09s for 10k, 68mins for 10 miles and 90mins for a HM and at the time I was still riding a bike and doing the odd cyclo-cross to keep “race fit”. I was only doing 20-30 mpw across 3 or 4 sessions a week so it was basically quality over quantity.
I got notice that I had a charity place for FLM 08 with 11 weeks to go so managed to knock out 334 miles (av 30mpw) and did 3h30 for my first marathon. I did 16 miles as my longest run and my five longest runs totalled 70 miles. I managed 2 races in the build up ( a 5mile and a 10k) and I was aiming at sub 3h15. 1 week before I knocked out a 41min 10k PB so had the confidence to think I could do it. I did 1h38 for the first half followed by a painful second half at 1h51! The lack of endurance told but looking back I think I did well to get through without resorting to walking. All my miles up to 20 miles were 7min-odd but then from 20 miles I was doing 8 min miles and the final 2 miles were 10min and 9mins respectively.
2 weeks after London I cracked out a 5 mile PB of 31m32 followed 8 days later by a 10k PB of 40m19 followed 2 days later by a 5k PB of 19m14s.
07/12/2010 at 14:21
I wanted to prove that a married father of one with a job could get round a marathon in sub 3h15 so entered the Nottingham marathon (Sept 2008). I did a 12 week build up and although I managed a 20 mile run, my 5 longest runs still only totalled 88 miles. I did 5 races in the build up ( 3x 5k: all 19mins, a 6 mile in 37m53s and a HM in 90mins). The first 19 miles were all 7min-odd pace with one at 6m44s. From 20miles they were 8min pace with the final two at 9 min pace. I was disappointed at the time with the 3h25 result but looking back it was the lack of endurance again in my build up. I only averaged 28mpw over those 12 weeks with 333 miles.
07/12/2010 at 14:21
I found out in late 2008 I was successful in the ballot so was fully focused on the sub 3h15 target again! I did two autumn half marathons in 91min and 90mins and then dived into regular Wednesday night sessions with the club’s group 1: the fast guys and girls basically. Although I managed most Wednesday nights from Oct-Dec the rest of it was piecemeal and while I would have one good week of 30 miles it would be followed by a week of 11 miles for instance. I was not “consistently consistent” as TR would say. I got ill in early December which I couldn’t shake off fully but on 1st January 2009 I decided to do the local 5 mile race and although below par still managed 33m01s. I classed that as the start of week 1 of a 17 week build up to FLM 09. By week 5 I was up to a long run of 20 miles and a weekly total of 43mpw. By week 12 I’d managed 5 x 20 milers one of which was a race (2h21m) and I’d also done a 15 mile race in 1h45 and also 2 cross country events for my club. I was now getting the miles in and focusing on 3 to 4 runs a week: Monday easy run or spin on bike, Tuesday would be up to an hour at marathon HR which was equating to about 7m03 – 7m07s pace, Weds night would be club night with group 1 doing mile reps / 1k reps / fartlek / Kenyan hills sessions, Friday would be circuit session, Sunday long run.
In the run up to FLM 09 I did a short 19min 5k on 1st April, Midland Relays 4th April, 39m31s PB for 10k on 5th April. I then did the National Relays the week before London (18th April) and felt strong. I was down to sub 7min miling for the last 3 marathon paced sessions in the last 3 weeks so felt confident. I had done 512 miles over the 17 weeks, had my 5 x long runs = 100 miles and had a good solid build up with no illnesses / injuries and had done a sub 40min 10k. Everything pointed to 3h09/3h10 on the day. The weather was yet to play it’s trump card however….. After 4 months of being used to cold and inclement weather the actual day was a scorcher. I ran it to HR to make sure I didn’t over-extend myself but I knew I was off pace by halfway as I went through in 1h37m17s. Although I came in with another PB of 3h19 it wasn’t good enough by the standards I’d set myself in training and racing. The positives to come out of it was that my positive split of the race was only 1h37 / 1h41 compared to 1h38 / 1h51 the previous year and I only did 3 miles in the whole race that were 8min-odd pace. In fact I even did miles 3 and 4 at sub 7 min pace!
Just to prove that it was the weather that was the root cause I did an 18m32s 5k 10 days after London and an 87min half marathon 4 days after that.
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