Come and join in
Under the guidance of Liz Yelling I decided to go and do Chester 5 weeks after London. I had a rest week with no running then did weeks of 35miles, 38 miles, 32 miles before an easy week of 11 miles. The longest run I did was 2hrs and that was alternating blocks of 15mins of easy running with 15mins blocks of marathon pace work for the entire 2 hours. I did one run mid-week that included 15min blocks of MP and the rest of the week was easy running to help me recover from London.Chester marathon was my PB – 3h12m49s and it was a perfect race in that I ran a negative split by a handful of secs but I know that it was seriously compromised due to running London only 5 weeks previously. I was not fully fresh going into the race but did the absolute best I could on the day. I ran an amazingly even paced day with all my mile splits being very close together and didn’t pay any attention to my HR. A useful lesson learned for the future.
What have I learnt? There’s no short cuts to success in running a sub 3h15 marathon. You need basic leg speed at shorter distances so good times at 5k/5mile/10k are a must as is an ability to run 90mins or even less than that for a half marathon. You need 5 long runs to equal at least 100miles and to be honest, having run more than 5 x 20 milers will help with your endurance. You need to do a minimum of 40mpw consistently over a good 10-12 weeks prior to your taper. Running with a club will bring you in leaps and bounds provided you go out with a group that tests and stretches you. Cross country races are a great way to build leg strength and keep you race fit over the winter and provide some mental stimulus. Long runs need to be run at MP + (at least) 60s so for a 3h15 time you’re looking at 8m27s pace. My 5 long runs pre-London was an average of 8m35s pace and at Chester those runs kicked in with style allowing me to run a negative split and get stronger over the 2nd half and come out with 7m20s pace. Time on feet is key for long runs.
What would be a perfect schedule then? Ideally you’d be coming into a schedule where you’re already doing 35mpw based around a 2hr run on the weekend, a club night run Weds night and some easier paced running around those 2 sessions. Maybe the odd Parkrun and 10k or HM if during the summer or the odd XC race during the winter. This would allow you to start doing 2hr+ runs as your long runs fairly quickly and without any likelihood of picking up injury.I would say that mid-week semi-long runs (13-15 miles) are the 2nd most important session of the week followed by a speed session and the rest of the week easy paced running. Long runs and semi-long runs run off at MP + (at least) 60s and the easy runs at MP + 90secs. One thing that Liz Yelling taught me post Super Six was to keep practicing MP as much as possible so using the longer runs to introduce blocks of 15mins at MP is a good thing especially near the end of the run so you’re learning how to run at MP on tired legs.Ideal week (for me) if I was planning a schedule would look like:
Mon – 30mins easy runTues – max 60mins easy runWed – run to club (2 miles), club session (7 miles), 4miles loop home (class this as semi-long run)Thu – 30mins easy runFri – max 60mins easy runSat – restSun – long run
Thanks very much for all your Help MM, hats off to you for doing that, it was a great read.
I am working my way through the schedules you posted for me on the previous page, so thanks once again for that, am building my training spreadsheet as we speak on the back of that.
Read it mid lesson.
Absolutely fantastic. About the 3rd or 4th time I've read this and every time I learn something else (this time I am wondering if I feel a bit run down yesterday and today after averaging 7.47 pace on my LSR on Sunday). Thanks for posting again MM. Inspiring stuff..
SteveC1975 wrote (see)
Thanks very much for all your Help MM, hats off to you for doing that, it was a great read.I am working my way through the schedules you posted for me on the previous page, so thanks once again for that, am building my training spreadsheet as we speak on the back of that.
If you want to become the thread's pet project as it were then feel free to post up your schedule for us to comment on and/or help with. I realise the thread is moving on with most of the posters more at the '3' end of the 'sub 3h15' but it doesn't mean we don't remember how to do 3h14m59s off 40mpw av (or maybe less). Like I said, the basics are the same, it's just the time spent doing them that is the difference.
This thread (and the posters on it) have helped me enormously in various guises over the past 2 years and I'd like to pass the help/advice on where possible
Yeah, can we poke him and make him eat nasty things to see what happens?!
Keir wrote (see)
Read it mid lesson.
What do you mean? That was the lesson.
A very interesting read MM. And lots to take away too.
MsE - I had a look at the Youtube vid you mentioned earlier and it was horrendous. In the strange helter-skelter that is watching videos on Youtube, I also saw an amusing one of 2 women who were doing a synchronised wobbling just before the IM finish line.I'm not sure how much advice you can get on this thread regarding fuelling for a HIM but I believe competitors try to shove as much food down their throats as possible on the bike, in readiness for the run. Perhaps if he's lurking TR might pop in to give you some advice. Or maybe you could knock on the door of the sub3 thread as there are a few IM and HIMers in there.
Are we allowed to stick needles into him, or just stroke him from afar?
Matchstick Man wrote (see)
I realise the thread is moving on with most of the posters more at the '3' end of the 'sub 3h15'
MsE wrote (see)
Experienced marathoners/endurance athletes of the forum! Please can you talk to me about The Wall? I have just watched some clips on YouTube and one, in particular, of Paula Newby Fraser in 1995 was not pleasant to see. What is the best way to ensure I avoid this in April and during my HIM? I have a feeling that a combination of training and fuel is the answer...?
questions about tri-stuff I'd ask on the triathlon forum but from a purely marathon perspective the wall is more of a Daily Mail construct. It's something that is easily avoided through decent endurance in training and nutrition in the days leading up to the race, the morning of the race and during the race itself. There's plenty of us here who've managed a negative split during a marathon so it shows that "the wall" is something that people who don't train enough or who aren't diligent enough with their nutrition tend to experience.
tbh, after 20 miles pretty much all of us want to stop and the last 10km is ruddy painful but it's that challenge that we look forward to. Right?
Are we allowed to stick needles into him, or just stroke him from afar?Matchstick Man wrote (see) I realise the thread is moving on with most of the posters more at the '3' end of the 'sub 3h15' Brings us back to the thread name change thing around page 1200 of this thread. Any more happening with that, or are we staying put?
Ok, but before we all go can I just draw the thread's attention to.....
Ideal week (for me) if I was planning a schedule would look like:
I don't mind being the thread guinea pig (especially apt as I am on my fourth Krispy Kreme doughnut of the day (someone's birthday is the excuse)Will post up my excel file link or screenshots when I have had a chance to look at the P & D schedules.
A few changes I am thinking about, the 20th Mar - Brentwood Half is to run that at HM Pace rather than at MP, but in the context of the training week, i.e. no taper etc, thoughts?
Also, in Mid March onwards, I usually start my rides into work, this is about 16 miles each way, should I can them and wait until after VLM or use them as cross training, in the place of a recovery run?
Are we all de-camping to that other thread then ?? Will it be scary
MsE - like Keir said - orthotics solved my knee pain 100%. I splashed out and got a proper assessment by a biomechanics guy and he made me custom shaped ones. Utter agony breaking them in but I know struggle to wear any shoes without them.
Great stuff there MM. How do you manage to be so organised ! You must be cutting/pasting and organising sub folders twenty four seven ! I like your view of "the wall" as a Daily Mail construct. I don't think it really should exist for anyone at our humble level since we're all prepared to put in the hours training and be sensible.
Steve - as our experimental subject just how far are you prepared to go ?? You wouldn't mind if you start getting hairy palms or growing pert little breasts would you ?? On a more serious note - good luck and I'll attempt to chip in as you progress. Hope I didn't sound overly negative the other day but - like most of us- having been through injury it really is a pi$$er and avoidance of overdoing it and imploding should be number one priority in my book. I find it's taken me about 3 or 4 years to get to the point where 50-60 miles a week as a base doesn't feel too arduous
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