Sub 3h15

For anyone trying to crack the 3h15 barrier anywhere in the world

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10/12/2010 at 10:41
Keir wrote (see)
Moraghan - Tempted to say that it didn't do me any harm (38 mpw ave, 99m = 5 longest runs, 3.09 at Abingdon), or did I just get lucky? Is the 50% rule due to injury prevention?

It's mainly in the interests of proportion.  If you don't have an extensive background a long run of 50% of weekly mileage is likely to be so stressful that it will limit your midweek running and take you too long to recover.  If you can easily handle it as 50% then the answer is simple - you should be doing more in the week. 

I'd look at your result in a different way and say imagine what you'd have got averaging 50+m. It's also possible that your cycling background enabled success of that sort of schedule or perhaps you were also doing extensive additional aerobic work.

A.C wrote (see)

Was thinking about the doubles you are running at the moment Keir - how are they going? what kind of benefits are you expecting? and what is the motivation for running them? From memory P+D (may their names be praised) say at our level we shouldn't really be doing them at all..

Must admit I think this talk of limiting the introduction of doubles until you reach a certain mileage is just a logistical convenience - it certainly makes no sense from a general training point of view.
10/12/2010 at 11:04
Looking back at my spring mileage, my long runs were done at a percentage of 24-41% with only 1 week at 52% and that was a 15 miler. My longest runs (18/20/20/20/22) were done at 32-41% with my longest run 22.01 miles done at 35% of that weeks mileage (62miles)
TR
10/12/2010 at 12:13

MM – fair do’s, I understand. Your commitment to the whole process was good. Its just a shame that the 2.5M each ways were in there cos they probably helped very little.

Re the doubles, for VLM 2009 I simply ran to work and back twice a week (for an 8 week period) and did an LSR on the weekend. I was getting pretty fit on this regime and was only scuppered by a calf strain about 4 weeks out. So even though most schedules propose running 6 days/week before you incorporate doubles, I think you can get some very good gains by doing them even if you don’t run every day. I typically ran 8M in the morning and 6 on the way home. I reckoned I was in sub 2:50 shape too until I hurt my calf. Lots of IM triathletes are starting to do double run days or double bike days rather than a run and a bike some days. I’ll probably do this again after Christmas.

10/12/2010 at 12:51

I have often thought that this whole business of doubles is a lot of fuss about nothing.

After all, when is a double not a double? If you run late in the evening and then do a morning run (which I frequently do), this is effectively a double ie two runs within twelve hours.

I think the major point is the one that Jezza used to make and TR made earlier, if you have the time and you are going to lace up those trainers, make each session really count. And of course, if you are trying to focus on quality, 10m in one go has got to be more meaningful than 2x5m.

When I first got into running I used to do a different type of double: 3-4 mile run first thing and then 2 hours gym work later in the day (weights, rowing x-trainer, treadmill, swim). The weight fell away (and there was a lot to lose back then!).

10/12/2010 at 13:08
A.C wrote (see)
And of course, if you are trying to focus on quality, 10m in one go has got to be more meaningful than 2x5m.

When I first got into running I used to do a different type of double: 3-4 mile run first thing and then 2 hours gym work later in the day (weights, rowing x-trainer, treadmill, swim). The weight fell away (and there was a lot to lose back then!).

Surely, it's a time on feet/endurance senario? If you were splitting the 10 miles into 2 x 5 mile chunks, would you run these quicker than you would the full 10 miler?

Tony Hodge 5 - Hi Tony, I remember your posts from MM's thread earlier this year and all the bad snow you had out in Germany. If Ii don't get into the Super Six, I'm down to run Brighton as well.
So far there is You, FINgers and possibly me - Brighton train a cometh

10/12/2010 at 13:42

Keir/KR -  Target is still sub 3:15 at Gloucester in Jan.  I just ate normally but made sure I had plenty of water during the day as I don't carry any with me. I found out about the unfuelled runs after reading RJ's training info for abo and got more info about the two types of long runs from the McMillan website after a link was posted on the forum.

10/12/2010 at 13:43
I've just been out for a walk and the ice has all but gone - hurray!!! Hopefully this means I can abandon the field and hit the road tomorrow for what should qualify as the first MLR of my recovery. Reading back, I think I might need to hold off increasing my MLR distance for a few weeks as it's almost up to 40% of my total mileage this week  
10/12/2010 at 13:44

I dunno KR - I guess for me it comes down to the fact that if I had the choice I would always run a block of 10m rather than 2x5m.

I wouldn't choose/want to run 2x5m quicker but I may end up doing so in order to finish more quickly! 

I don't understand the science etc but 10m in one go has to be more substantial as a training stimulus (blood to muscles, fat burning etc) than 2x5m.

By quality, I don't mean the speed or pace of the session, I mean it being more like having one square meal rather than two snacks ie more substantial.

I also clearly accept that, like Keir, sometimes doubles are the only way to get the trianing in

10/12/2010 at 13:54
A.C wrote (see)

I also clearly accept that, like Keir, sometimes doubles are the only way to get the training in


and me as it's the only way for me to get to work and back. I really admire people like Knight Rider who go out once the children have gone to bed. For me, running as commuting means than when I get back at 6, I've done my training for the day. The only exception for me is Weds nights with the club.
10/12/2010 at 14:48

1 night away from the bathtime routine is my weekly allowance as well. Kids tucked up by 8pm, so I sometimes go out then, but prefer early mornings to late nights.

I'm not on a Marathon programme yet, but my base building weeks so far on average look something like this:

Mon: Rest

Tue: 5m am easy, 5m pm easy

Wed: 5m am steady, Core session and 5m pm OR club session 9m

Thur: 5m am recovery, 5m pm steady

Fri: 5m am easy

Sat 5m easy or rest

Sun 16 - 18m LSR.

Not too focused on pace at the moment. Generally running without Garmin and just focusing on mile building. However realising I can consistently do this sort of weekly mileage is making me think whether I should reconsider the 'up to 55m' plan I had cobbled together for my A target HM (and carry over to B target Marathon 6 wks later) and give a up to 70 plan a go. But that is a lot of running 

10/12/2010 at 15:06
well an extra mile on all the sessions above takes you from 56 / 62 up to 65 / 71 miles......
Personally I'd push the volume up on the club session to 11-13 miles and make the most of the time you've been alloted for that evening and make sure the Sunday long run is 18-20 miles keeping the rest of the sessions the same. Instead of doing 5 and 5, why not 6 and 4? What about making the Saturday run 30mins max - why does it have to be 5 miles?
10/12/2010 at 15:11

Keir my biggest regret for London this year is that having been in good enough shape to cope with the up to 70 schedule I didn't push it and therefore didn't cash in on the base fitness I had built in 2009. So I would say go for it and bulk up the miles but make them really count.

Good point MM 6 and 4 or even 7 and 3 might be a better balance, if you can manage it (particularly if you throw in some strides to spritz up the longer sessions).

I'm another post kids bedtime runner - much prefer that to the mornings - I do have a running watershed of 9.30 after which I think I should be going to bed rather than heading out the door.

edit - typo

Edited: 10/12/2010 at 15:16
10/12/2010 at 15:12

Keir your base is looking solid as a rock Sir. Put it this way - going from 55 to 70 is an extra 2 miles on every run (unless you're doing your doubles thing) which doesn't make it sound so bad. However I found going up to 70 caused some niggles and injuries. Quite tough to sustain 70mile weeks for 22 weeks though ! As you can see I'm not offering anything as useful as an opinion !!

The big thaw's on up here.Going to venture outside for the first outdoor run in nearly 2 weeks !

Taper time soon Barry ?? Perfect timing for the Xmas carb fest

10/12/2010 at 15:22

Cheers MM, AC, FW

Reason for the magic 5 number is that my usual (non main road) run is 1 mile out / 3 mile circuit / 1 mile back. I can double back and not complete the loop (this morning I was only planning on doing 3) but when get out there I prefer to keep going. This is the only traffic free road at 6am which I feel safe on. Other roads can be used but are a bit too busy to feel totally safe.

However certainly 5m am / 7m pm is just as achievable as 3m am and 7m pm. Will build the habit during those long, beautiful Xmas hols.

30 mins on Sat is also achievable.

I am slowly increasing LSRs so can be hitting 20m mid Jan.

Fraser - Glad the ice queen is being banished. Whats the latest forecast for next wk? Have you got your HM plan yet?

10/12/2010 at 15:23

Hmm.  I'm not sure I'm a morning person or an evening person!  I can manage getting up at 6am, 5.30 at a push, but not earlier.  And I have to be in bed by 10pm; 11pm at the latest.  I don't like training to finish after 9pm as I like at least an hour to relax before bed. 

Rock 'n' roll weekend planned: work training course tomorrow (the end of the CPD year - 31.12.10 - waits for no woman...) and then marshalling for tri-counties XC on Sunday.  I'll probably try and do my LSR after the course tomorrow so that I can jog to and from the XC.  That's what I call a rock and roll lifestyle.

10/12/2010 at 15:29
Jools, just a gentle reminder if you haven't already. SEND YOUR CHAMPIONSHIP ENTRY TODAY!
10/12/2010 at 15:30
I definitely find mornings preferably to evenings, which I need for time with my wife after the kids are in bed too! Getting a good night's sleep and waking up fresh in the morning works much better for me. But I still haven't figured out how to fit in a mid-week MLR in a morning.
10/12/2010 at 15:32
Keir wrote (see)

However realising I can consistently do this sort of weekly mileage is making me think whether I should reconsider the 'up to 55m' plan I had cobbled together for my A target HM (and carry over to B target Marathon 6 wks later) and give a up to 70 plan a go. But that is a lot of running 

Marathon training is a lot of running, but the dark art is finding enough time to be consistent, so if you can be consistent up to 55m per week, you'll still see improvements.  When does your 18 week programme start? I believe the P&D 55-70m per week plan assumes you are running upto 55 miles per week consistently before the programme starts anyway.  Which isn't too far off what you are doing at the moment, but as it has more of a structured emphasis (key workouts) so it may be slightly more taxing.  

I'll leave the doubles to the "spirited drinkers" on this thread, squeezing in enough time for one run is problematic enough.

KK, Getting up @4.30 to run.....Sod that.

Joolska, CPD on a weekend...double sod to that.

Just an easy 11.75m for me to report for last night @8:10mm, with a bit of mincing across the icy patches.

10/12/2010 at 15:32
I sent my Championship entry last week so I'm hoping I'll get a response soon...  I'll call them end of next week if no reply.
10/12/2010 at 15:39
Gul Darr wrote (see)
I definitely find mornings preferably to evenings, which I need for time with my wife after the kids are in bed too!

Is it only me that has the theme to Shaggy's 'Mr Bombastic' going on in their head after that disclosure from Gul.  "Mr Lover Lover....."

Sorry Gul.

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