Sub 3h15

For anyone trying to crack the 3h15 barrier anywhere in the world

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27/11/2012 at 18:40

Carbloader - you have potential, you just need to run more, 35M week isnt enough to run a strong marathon. 10M at MP is a hard run, so if you are doing 8 av 6:50 routinely then with a period of higher mileage for a while you should be able to run closer to 6:50s as MP.
You need to try to run 5 or 6 days week, ideally with a midweek 13 or 14M run and a long run that builds to 20-22M, during a marathon build up. Your 8M runs are good, start off by filling a few of your non running days with 5 or 6M easy, so you get used to the increase in frequency. Easy running is very under-rated, dont get sucked into chasing pace, you simply need to build some endurance.

The PnD recommendation is a good one if you'd rather have a plan to follow. Some say that PnD dont have enough long runs but PnD is about the plan as a whole and is meant to be what it is. 

27/11/2012 at 20:43

Cheers for the replys.

TR, yes my plan is to add an extra run at 13-14M in the week and because i work shifts this could be any day, i do get alot of time off too so this helps me.

I have just gone and run 7.2 miles at 6.30 min per mile with relative ease so i dont think i need to worry about speed work too much just concerntrate on the medium runs and get the milage up right?.

27/11/2012 at 20:55

Welcome Carbloader. You seem very pacey, just the obvious item to add is endurance. TR is bang on as always. The goal is to add the miles/nuber of runs without increasing the injury risk.

Strange but good one today. I decided that rather than cut back I would increase my miles to high 40s. I looked at a couple of options, which were either 6 or 8 miles tonight followed by a 14 or 5 tomorrow. The rain was lashing it down, so soaked within seconds of getting outside. The positive was perfect running conditions once warmed up and absolutely nobody else out. Too keep a long story long, the seed was planted so tonights run became 14.5 miles at just over 2 hours (HR 70%). Legs are feeling it a bit now, but definately 5 miles recovery tomorrow. 

27/11/2012 at 21:16
Just a brief pop in. Good to see some more new faces

JD3- I'm having a super extended recovery. Mostly for psychological reasons and mental fatigue as much as physical. Still feel I'm shuffling a bit and not done more than 20 miles a week still!

Carbloader. Big target for you. How close to max effort did the 3.30 feel?? You'll certainly progress by increasing mileage - just be sensible with our targets. In some respects the short distance paces don't really matter. As you'll know it's ALL about th last 6.2 and tht is a totally different beast. Good luck but don't be greedy with targets. - you've got youth on your side to improve !

Don't think I'll be doing a Spring mara. Still plan is try to knock off the 22 seconds needed to get the HM under 80 mins and then prob Amsterdam or Frankfurt in October

I need to get some motivation again so plan to start popping in more frequently again from you inspirational chap(pesse)s
27/11/2012 at 21:26

Freemers  - you're right, I didn't give it my all in Newcastle, which makes me more excited for the Spring. I reckon if I can run that time, on that course, without specific marathon training, and only 3 long runs then I can go a good bit quicker in the Spring. (hopefully anyway )

Welcome carb, what was your pacing like on the 3:30 marathon?

Hello Fraser, what do you mean 20 mpw?   Which Autumn halves are you targeting?  I'll be coming up for the Meadows again but I think this time it will be a MP run.

600 reps for me tonight.  Quite nice to get some shorter speedworkto do and its what I need.  Ran along the coast in the dark with the wind whipping the sea up into a wild frenzy lit by the full moon.  Quite exhilarating.

Edited: 27/11/2012 at 21:27
27/11/2012 at 21:33

Err 3.30 or 3.29.14 to be exact was Manchester this year, felt ok did the last 6 miles @ 8.13 pace which is not too bad considering it was a 40 mph headwind lol.Those that ran it will know what im on about haha.

Also i drank about 6 pints of beer and a glass of wine the night before.Probably didnt help either.....

So now i have decided to do this training properly and get a decent time hence the ambitious 20 min PB target!!!!!

27/11/2012 at 21:51

Welcome Carbloader, there will be plenty of advice from the forum. One thing I have learnt is to keep your marathon target quite loose to start with until you're well into training and have a half marathon / 20 miler result to firm up the target.

I've gone from couch to 3:02 marathon this year with the weekly mileage below 40 pw. It was a mix of long runs, tempo runs and hill runs. I felt strong through most of the 26.2 on a hilly course.

I went on to do the traditional thing of upping mileage and ran 60+pw for a 2:59 result this autumn. I became a bit injury prone on that mileage (hence small pb improvement), and lost a lot of the enjoyment from running. Just be careful to increase mileage slowly if you go down this route.

I followed P&D Advanced Marathoning last marathon. Its a good resource to have, and the plans may suit.

I'm going to go back to shorter mileage for VLM with a bit more intensity. At the moment 60+ miles a week doesn't suit me

Edited: 27/11/2012 at 21:52
27/11/2012 at 22:01

Fraser - I'm only on about 100M/month at the mo, but theres lots of bike and swim too.

Carbloader - 7M av 6:30 !!! Just do some miles and you'll be well under 3:29. 6:30s is 2:50 pace.

Also Ran - none meant, but I think its a mistake to do less running but make it harder if you have had injury issues. I would keep the frequency up and run easy paced, as a novice this would be a better plan IMO. Your body should adapt better that way. Less frequency but harder running would be hard on the body.

27/11/2012 at 22:07

thanks mike.looked it up on google that sounds about to the docs again.recovery is a long time,might be a slow london 2013.once again thanks.   

27/11/2012 at 22:10

thanks mike.looked it up on google that sounds about to the docs again.recovery is a long time,might be a slow london 2013.once again thanks.   

Blisters    pirate
27/11/2012 at 22:33

Evening All. Especially the knowledgeable and experienced TR.
Hello to Carbloader, I see that you have an interesting approach to race preparation. This shows to me that you are not a sheep, but like to challenge the perceived wisdom. That's a characteristic in many of the very best athletes. However, there's a lot of experience held by the sheep. When you reach a performance plateau, that's the time to trash the existing training regime and review what's missing.
FWIW, I think that your programme is typical of a certain type of athlete. You've certainly got the pyhsical capability of achieving sub 3:00, let alone 3:15. The speed is fine, but speed builds lactic acid, and is combatted by lactic threshold training. But before that stage you need the basic raw endurance. That's where the current gap can be seen, and it's a major gap. Endurance. TR suggests the simple edict of more miles per week. The key run in any marathon programme is the 20 miler. The biking you have done recently is a good basis, but nothing at all in the world can replace the 20 miler. Funny things happen in the later stages of a marathon.
I know someone who did 3 fast marathons in consecutive seasons, then under trained and delivered an impressive crash boom 1:30/2:00 split.

27/11/2012 at 22:34
TR wrote (see)


Also Ran - none meant, but I think its a mistake to do less running but make it harder if you have had injury issues. I would keep the frequency up and run easy paced, as a novice this would be a better plan IMO. Your body should adapt better that way. Less frequency but harder running would be hard on the body.

TR, none taken I can understand that, and everything I read supports that view. From an enjoyment point of view I  preferred running less frequently, and this time plan to use some of the other days for cross training rather than recovery runs. For VLM I am keen to enjoy the journey, as I did on the way to running Wales Marathon. For Abingdon I got a bit wrapped up in targets, pb's, plans etc, and somewhere along the way forgot why I took up running. I took up running to relieve some pressure from daily life - ended up adding to it!!

28/11/2012 at 06:20

Hi guys and welcome to Carbloader. I took PMJ's advice and have been out for a few short runs. Lots of support from family and friends for one another. Back to work today which seems a bit strange, and then the funeral is next week. I am in the very fortunate position of the church being like a second home and family to me and my father-in-law is conducting the service, so won't be going to a strange place. Take care everyone.

28/11/2012 at 08:04
Good to hear things are going as well as they could Gul.

Carbs, welcome, sounds like you are up for the challenge then?! I don't think there's anything wrong with ambitious targets personally, although I usually crash and burn in races longer than 20 so you shouldn't listen to anything I say! I ran manchester last year by the way and reckon the conditions were worth at least 5 minutes, so that gets you a bit nearer

TR, tri type question for you, I'm due to start Fink's intermediate plan in December as prep for Outlaw in July but also want to have another pop at a fast marathon in April (Manchester). Looking at the schedule there isn't a great deal of running mileage leading up to April. Any thoughts on how / whether to tweak the Fink programme to get me run sharp?
28/11/2012 at 09:02

Glad to hear you are back running Gul. It is a great way to clear the mind.

Welcome back Fraser. When do you start the HM campaign? I'll be interested to hear about the nuts and bolts of the programme.

Also-ran wrote (see)
For Abingdon I got a bit wrapped up in targets, pb's, plans etc, and somewhere along the way forgot why I took up running. I took up running to relieve some pressure from daily life - ended up adding to it!!

+1 - I know that feeling! This time I am trying to follow TRs advice (perhaps there should be a TR wisdom / disciple thread?) and looking at the plan for the day, doing the run, then forgetting about it. I think a lot of the fatigue comes from the mental energy burned up just thinking about and obsessing over the sessions and plans. 

28/11/2012 at 09:21

Keir - I listened to TR myself a couple of weeks ago, have now got in the habit of running early, feeling satisfied with myself and heading off to work and not using up any mental energy. It was great advice and I feel really good for listening to it.

For what it's worth, Carbloader, I think if you have speed and the best part of 5 months to up the training so your target is possible. Here comes the big caveat: a lot depends on age. I ran my first marathon at the age of 22 in 3:09 with about 25 miles per week average and never went over 40. I was fit from other sports so quite quick but no endurance. I died over the last 6 miles! I would never do that again! My way was not the way to run sub 3:10. It was the worst marathon of my 8 completed - not the slowest but definitely the hardest and I didn't enjoy it one bit!

Gul - glad to see you are back out on the roads. Good for the mind at such a difficult time.

28/11/2012 at 10:21

Gul - good that the running is helping and that you have friends and family around you.

Keir/DS2 - I used to stress about it all, run my long runs too hard etc once running just becomes part of your life then it works better IMO. Thebest thing you can do is commit to yourself that you will complete as much of the plan as you can (without affecting your life too much), see how fit that gets you nearer race day and then just be the best you can be on race day. The perfect build up and perfect race doesnt exist.

SJ - nice one of doing Outlaw. Not sure of Fink, but I guess that you have a long swim, run and bike to do each week. Are you a Tri novice ? if so then you are going to be a stronger runner than swimmer and biker, so you need teh long swim and long bike. You can build the long runs up towards the 20s you need for a marathon and if it were me I'd up the run frequency a bit and do a midweeker for a 4 to 6 week block at the end. Doing a marathon as well as the Outlaw means its a trade off for both, but if you do the marathon your running wil be strong for the Outlaw, although how much cycling you do in training will massively affect your IM day. Marathons of Tri training with only 3 runs a week hurt ! i've done a couple, I now make my running days double days by commuting. 

Cheerful Dave    pirate
28/11/2012 at 10:36

SJ, you might be better off following a marathon plan until April, but adjusting it a bit to fit in some regular swimming and cycling, building up some long rides.  I've done VLM & a July IM for the last three years by alternating the long run and long ride weekends in the spring, or doing the long run Saturday and a 50-60 mile ride sunday.  Just avoid a very long ride too close to Manchester as experience says it'll take the sting out of your marathon.  Post-marathon you can follow Fink, but again adjust it because you'll be ahead of the game running-wise and catching up a bit on the bike. 

28/11/2012 at 12:32
Thanks chaps, I think my biggest gain area for tri is the bike (especially over 112miles!) so I'll try to keep as much bike volume in as possible and, as suggested, increase run mileage before Manchester and focus on bike afterwards.

Do you boys follow other IM schedules rather than Fink? I've bought the book but I'm not tied into it yet if there are other recommendations.
28/11/2012 at 12:56

SJ - Altough the essential ingredient to being good on the bike is lots of miles, there are some short-cuts which help:

1. Pedalling technique - practising spinning around 100rpm for 30mins or so on an indoor turbo trainer. One legged intervals focusing on smooth pedalling also help.

2. Strength - building strength in your buttocks is a key for non cyclists. Get used to turning over a big gear slowly, especially up long draggy hills in your TT position. 

3. BRICS - After 1 - 2 cycling sessions try to do a run around your target pace for a few miles. The main downfall for IM athletes with running back grounds seems to be knackering themselves too much on the bike and not being able to get used to running when off it. You need to get off the bike in a position you can run 'comfortably.

Other tips:

A 1hr spin on the turbo is a good leg freshener and replaces a recovery run quite nicely.

I have found 'by moving my LSR to mid week, I can do a MLR early sunday morning and follow this with the local club run 40-50m on the bike. A quick 1 - 2m run after this makes a great mornings work. 

A book which might be worth digging out is 'the time crunched cyclist' by Chris Carmichael. Although aimed at road racers rather than TTers or Triathletes, it does give you some time saving training suggestions.

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