Sub 3h15

For anyone trying to crack the 3h15 barrier anywhere in the world

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06/12/2012 at 12:50

Malcs Welcome. During particularly high mile weeks, I feel an ache in my calves, which goes as soon as I stop. I put this down to tired legs more than anything else. Ironically I also sometimes get the ache (it is an ache rather than a pain) on very slow recovery runs.

I am still running in shorts but am already stressing about returning to sunny Liverpool in two weeks. Would anyone recommend grips for running shoes?

06/12/2012 at 12:52

Yes, cramp in the last 6 miles. Almost every time.

Seems to be all adding up to not enoughh endurance work. On one of the other threads it was suggested I should do more long runs. Only did 4 x 20 milers last year but the suggestion was that might be too few.

Thanks for your help!

06/12/2012 at 12:54

Scooby Dudek - yes an ache is a better description. I only get it on the long runs at 15+ miles. I had assumed up to now that this was part of running distance and people just grit their teeth through it.

06/12/2012 at 18:41
Hi Malcs! Might well be an endurance / conditioning thing. With it being thighs and calves though it sounds like you are working the big muscles quite hard during your run - do you power yourself forward with a big, long stride with a low cadence (under 75 steps on the same leg per minute)? If so, you might want to try shortening your stride and taking more steps per minute (90 is apparently a good target). This should rely less on the big power muscles and ultimately make you more efficient and hopefully faster over a long distance.
06/12/2012 at 18:50

SlokeyJoe - haven't really thought about that but now you mention it I probably do have a low cadence. I certainly don't feel like I'm "powering" forward but my strides are definietly more on the longer side.

This is really useful info - many thanks indeed! 

06/12/2012 at 20:06
Left field theory* could be that lighter shoes may reduce cramping by making the feet and legs lighter and allowing faster turnover and a more natural gait. Glide like a Kenyan, don't plod like, err, a plodder.

* just made this up
Edited: 06/12/2012 at 20:06
06/12/2012 at 20:19

Malcs - how many weeks buildup ? how many mpw ? how many runs/week ? how many midweek MLR ? if only 4x20 what were the other LSRs ? any MP running ? could be a lack of a few of them  ....also, I over-trained my quads before VLM 2011 with too much hard hill running and hard bike work before the taper and they were still sore on race day. So are you saying that you get this every campaign, or just the last one.

06/12/2012 at 20:36

9.3 miles tonight (15km). I am really struggling to get myself out at the moment (can/should rest with campaign starting properly  in 2 weeks). However, once out I am really struggling to only run the distance planned. Plan was 7 miles tonight. Original plan was 35 for the week,will now be at least 40, maybe 45. I believe I am feeling the benfits of a month of steady running. Just need to keep my sensible head on.

I have also not drunk for 36 days (well it will be at midnight), but Christmas night out tomorrow, so my new found feeling of fitness (F3) may well be gone by Saturday morning.

06/12/2012 at 22:48
Scooby, if it's all extra steady miles then I am sure it will put you in a good place to start your plan. I've had to force myself to put the brakes on a few times. I was doing 6.20 to 6.30 min/miles yesterday and it suddenly dawned on me that a) it was hard work b)there was no reason for it, and c) to put my newly grown sensible head on!

Maybe a long slurred run will be called for after your Christmas night out
06/12/2012 at 23:02
Hi Malcs, I do find if I bang out a LR off of a minimal mileage week I always get a bit of an ache in my left quad whilst running (+1.5 hours). When I'm running a couple of MLR during the week this ache/fatigue doesn't materialize on the long run. For me its just conditioning with more miles.

As a cyclist commuter for the last ten years that documentary did make my blood boil. If I had a pound for every time I'd been cut up I'd have at least ??10 by now!
The cyclist with the camera on his head was a bit of a smug knob head wasn't he.
I have had to verbal slanging matches where I've offered to throw my bike onto the bonnet of some dicks car as that is what I assumed he wanted. Didn't go down to well.

DS2 you have my vote.

Welcome back badbark, it will be interesting to see how you get on with your plan. I'm off to have a look at it. (Just to throw a spanner in the works)

People still running in shorts. Tough Northeners.
06/12/2012 at 23:07

Moof - made my blood boil as well. Not doing any of us cyclists any good that type of thing. That thing where the guy got hit and the driver was put on youtube and eventually fined £600 happened in the village where I work. Right outside my favourite spot for a nice lunch - Ferrari's restaurant in Bexley. It was all the talk when it happened.

I have run in tights the past couple of days - southern softie!

06/12/2012 at 23:14

TR - last year I started late Nov. In past years I've started in Jan. So really a 16-20wk  buildup. MPW varied from 20-40. I was still playing rugby on a Saturday on and off too. My other LSRs were 3 x 15m and 3 x 18m. I alternated between 15m one weekend and 20 the next. 

I tried to do half my LSR at slower than MP and half at MP. I did not bad at keeping to this.

The soreness I've had in all of them. It's the same kind of pain I feel in the last few miles of each marathon but not as intense. 

It's becoming clear that I probably need to do alot more endurance and probably some strength work too. Plus my weekly mileage is not very high - no MLR, just 2-4 milers, 6 if I got the time.

It pains me to say it but I'm going to have to stop the rugby . I have to focus if I wante to achieve my goals and most I'll most certainly be giving up if I get to Paris.

moof - I'm going to have to try that, my midweek mileage is appalling.

Thanks for your help!

Edited: 06/12/2012 at 23:16
06/12/2012 at 23:27

Malcs - Thought so. 20 to 40 mpw isnt enough, take out the long run and theres not much left, 2 - 4 milers are good for general health but not marathons. I've had quad soreness when I've run marathons off 3 runs/week but not when I've run 5 or 6 days. You need to run more frequently. Start off by upping the frequency and then the distances. If you can build to something like a 20, 14, 10 and a few 6 to 8s then you'll be much better prepared. Try for 6 to 8 20s too. Slow running is fine in training, the frequency and consistency matter more.

06/12/2012 at 23:34

Thanks TR - I feel slightly embarrassed that it could be something so simple 

Blisters    pirate
07/12/2012 at 00:26

Don't be embarrassed Malc. Even us old (OLD) hands go into the same territory. The way I see it is that a 20 banged out that results in a stiff leg finish or stiff leg Sunday is a bonus run. Proper training. You've pushed it. Next week or 14 days later it will be better. Maybe best not to focus too hard on the end to end time, but the splits and how they fade with distance, even better if you can link them to heart rate. My best results were from a 6x 22 miler campaign, but with intervening weeks being a moderate 13/15 mile medium run.
TR summarises the basics nicely. I found that it was easier to run 6/7 days a week than it was to run 4. Because I knew that every day was a running day, except for the one carefully planned skive. A rest day was the period between an early 20m Saturday run and a late night Sunday run..

07/12/2012 at 00:47
Blisters wrote (see)

except for the one carefully planned skive.


Many thanks. I think I need to go back to the drawing board. It'll be very interesting to see what the coaches do with me if I make it through to the final 5. If not I've already learned loads from here and the other threads I've been posting on. Brace yourself for some more questions once I start trying out your advice

Thanks again!  

07/12/2012 at 06:48

Malcs - you've got some great advice here. Definitely don't feel embarrassed - I think most people will be able to remember the point where the penny finally dropped.  I have been running for about 14 years but have learned more in the past two years than ever before.  Once you start to get it right everything just slots into place and running becomes so much more enjoyable.  The guys on here really know their stuff and are very supportive.  They've put up with me for years.    Think of this as just the beginning.  

07/12/2012 at 07:27

Malcs I usually get cramp in the marathon but never in training or shorter distances. It's because my marathon training is usually under par. Even if I get the distance I don't work hard enough. But knowing the cause is one thing, correcting it implies a lot of hard work.

2.5 miles last night with my daughter who is keen for another go at the parkrun this w/end.


07/12/2012 at 08:22

Thanks Minni - I was about to say it feels like the past 4 years have been a bit of a waste but then I have learned alot about how not to do it  

OO lets go - have you tried salt tabs or do you think electrolytes are not the cause? Must be great running with your daughter. My son asked me the other day if he could come running with me when he's a bit older which had me beaming. We did the Sports Relief mile but I can't wait until I can take him on a longer one - bit more of an adventure!

I'd also like to be able to play rugby alongside him but that means I have to survive another 8 years and the bruising is taking longer and longer to go down each season!

Edited: 07/12/2012 at 08:23
07/12/2012 at 08:44
Malcs - a dose of sodium will not hurt but can't cover up for lack of hard endurance training. Likewise setting off too fast might be a problem too. Picking target races in times of colder weather could be a smart move.

BTW when Minni says people "know their stuff", be aware that techniques previously highlighted on here have included: running in women's underwear - only wearing orange clothes - necking 2 bottles of wine the night before a race - using one's hat as toilet paper - etc etc. Don't believe everything you hear.
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