Sub 3h15

For anyone trying to crack the 3h15 barrier anywhere in the world

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18/02/2013 at 15:44
Mennania wrote (see)

Thanks for the congrats and encouragement from all, the 1.23xx  has focussed me onto a sub 3 attempt but I wonder do I need to shift upto the 55-70 to give it a proper chance? I have been following a hybrid recently.

In March 2011 I ran a PB for a half in 1:22 and then at the start of May I ran 2:57 for the full. I nudged low 60's a few weeks but in general I was mid 50s. I'd say 55-70 is too long, maybe 45-60 is better. I have a vague framework which is 6 runs a week so 3 recovery runs (3*5) and then my hard days are 10, 15 and 20 which comes to 60 miles a week. In practice I seldom hit all three quality runs as planned so the 20 didn't happen every week (and it would have been suicide to have done so for 16 weeks) but I reckon the important ones are the fast ones (I did a lot of races and tempo work at 6 m/m last year for a MP of 6:30) and the "fast but not quite so fast" so a lot of miles at MP-30 s so runs in 13-15 miles with 13.1 coming  up in 92 or 93 miles.

18/02/2013 at 15:52

My reflections from yeasterday are that I'm in reasonable shape and wouldn't have done much different. It's my first proper race of the year and the first one in 5 months where I actually improved on mt time last year (albeit by a second). On the downside my demise was familiar and scary over the last 2 miles and there is work to do for London. I got the proper b/mark I needed and it's not a bad one.

I'm actually struggling to walk today so a well earned day off.   

Edited: 18/02/2013 at 15:53
18/02/2013 at 16:44

Good point about racing OO. I've not raced since October and feel a bit rusty. As PMJ says doing a lot of races helps and you run differently to how you would going solo.

18/02/2013 at 16:59
My HM time last year was 1.23.14 and a 3.1.40 full, this was on the P&D 55-70 schedule. I found the step up in mileage quite tough and I don't think my conversion from half to full marathon is that great.

This year I am coping well with the higher mileage due to a good, consistent base throughout last year and should peak at around the 80 mile mark.

I'm hoping that my 1min HM PB will convert to a 2min Mara PB, which should sneak me under the 3 hour mark.

Does your HM time really have any relevance? Not so sure myself, as there is a big difference between running 90 minutes and three hours. Leg speed maybe, but it doesn't really tell you if the endurance is there.

As for racing more frequently, must make you 'match' fit and battle hardened. I don't do nearly enough of it, but as with everything I would imagine you can do to much of it. Trying to peak for too many races = too much time on the limit = overtraining etc.
18/02/2013 at 17:05

I shall discover if racing yourself fit really does work; legs feel fine today, so the Weston Prom Run (5M) is on the cards for Thursday.  3rd race in 12 days, but I guess neither Wokingham nor Bramley were flat out, so probably more a case of training hard (but hopefully smart) to get myself fit...

18/02/2013 at 17:34

I would also guess that regular racing benefits you more for a 10k or half M. I usually like 3 weeks recover betweem races.

18/02/2013 at 19:02

Scooby - FFS stop being so hard on yourself man, that was a tough tough session and its hard to run 12M at MP, let alone do it 12 weeks out, you made a bloody good fist of it, its bagged, move on ! and BTW what time of Sunday morning exactly were you trying to run this MP effort at please ?

18/02/2013 at 19:05
My conversion is frankly poor. Done several HMs in the 1.20-1.22 territory but only ever squeezed a couple of 2.59 maras. Also maras of 3.00,3.02 and 3.04. Mileage mis 60s for the better performances

On paper to me 1.24 or even 1.23 looks very tight for a comfortable sub3 but that prob reflects my weakness more than anything. Perhaps I lend support to moof's argument that they are in fact such different animals that the HM time is only of moderre relevance

Enjoy the self satisfaction of post race stiff legs well earned OO

My last race was Abo last year. Parkrun in 2 weeks will be my first blast since then. Should be interesting...

You're young and spritely Jools. You'll recover fine!
18/02/2013 at 19:35
moof wrote (see)

Does your HM time really have any relevance?


Well, if you run 3:00 then the best you can do is 90 minutes per half. You are not going to break 3:00 until you have broken 1:30. Beyond that obvious limitation, there is a strong correlation so people with faster half times run faster marathons and you could easily plot a graph that shows common conversion (and it will also show that the faster your half, the better the conversion is so e.g Steve Jones 61 and 2:07 so double and add 5 minutes, Hugh Jones 63 and 2:09 double and add 3 and Philip Jones 80 and 2:50 so double and add 10 minutes) , but for an individual you can't really apply statistics.

Edited: 18/02/2013 at 19:35
18/02/2013 at 19:58
1:22 half and 3:12 Mara. Double plus 28 mins. I'll bet that's the poorest conversion on the thread!
18/02/2013 at 20:16

Poacher - Dont know if 1.23.xx will get me there. I dont have any disasters to gauge things by - I have pb'd each race I have raced, halfs have gone 1.42, 1.34, 1.29, 1.28, 1.24.xx,1.23xx. All  run to a target and none felt on the edge. Mara conversions are 3.24 off 1.28 (I was ill during training) and then 3.13 off 1.28 (ran to get gfa).I ran the 1.24 half 3 weeks after the 3.13 full. I think that on a good day in my current nick and fully raced I would be in the mid to low 1.22, maybe the high end of 1.21. I guess conversions are interesting for me as I have now performance based evidence of my own.

PMJ - Thanks that is really helpful as that is the range I feel is very manageable for me. I tend to run my MLRs at mp +10% around 7.30s.

Sorry for hogging...

18/02/2013 at 20:48
This makes interesting reading. I reckon my conversions are pretty ropey. Even in my earlier running years my PB of 2.44 was run off a 75:20 half. In recent times they've been poor but I'm sure it's through lack of proper endurance training hence the complete change of focus this year and much more plodding.

I have had PMJ's 60 mile regime in my head since I started specific training this year and I think it's serving me well. I'm sure I can go sub 90 for the half early April which I hope I can convert to a sub 3 :15 in May.

I think the real difference this year has been the midweek MLR.
18/02/2013 at 20:50

Well done at Wrexham KR.  Sounds like the conditions put paid to a fast finish.  I think you are right in that faster paced midweek runs will help speed endurance.

Mrs H had a great birthday thanks Gul.  Only tempered by her main birthday present arriving when she was at home last week in a box marked "Telescope".  Spoiled the surprise a little!!!

Mennania - I've never ran a HM in preparation for a full, but I ran 2.49 last year from ave 46mpw with a max week of 55 miles.  If you can build the endurance further over the next few weeks then you will thereabouts.  Faster finishing and progressive runs are my top tip.

7 steady miles for me this morning before work.  10 progressive miles tomorrow and then intervals on Thursday.  This will be my hardest week of the year by far. 

18/02/2013 at 21:05

TR I actually thought my reflections today were quite philosophical. I feel a lot better about it today than I did yesterday. Up at 04:30 for breakfast of porridge and orange juice. Out the door at 06:30, so started the MP at just before 7 am. It is warm were I am at that time in the morning. Any running after 10 am and it starts to get too hot.


18/02/2013 at 21:08

Just as I knew I'd run sub 3.15 before I ran sub 90, I'm pretty sure I'll run sub three before I get a HM in the region of 1.23. 

18/02/2013 at 21:12

I think your 2.49 off an average 46 mpw is amazing Martin and certainly shows that not all heavy mileage plans are the answer - it's what best suits the individual. As Bananrama sang in the 80's, It's not what you do it's the way that you do it, that's what gets results!

18/02/2013 at 21:31

Wow, busy thread. So in a Gul style...

Hope the knee’s feeling a bit better today Lorenzo

Scooby, don’t stress about how hard the run was. That is a fantastic mileage and great to get 6 20+ d+d so early in the campaign. If you felt fresh in the LSR something would be wrong!

Fast start, wobbly legs, throwing up, after a lay off… all things considered Ant it was a good training session and refocus on getting 2 good weeks training under the belt before the taper. Unfortunately having not spotted anyone in orange I’ve decided you can’t be in that picture!

Good paced 16miler PMJ. Sounds like you are pretty much recovered now.

That was a fantastic run from you Jools. You really are motoring. Great progressive session. They are brilliant for confidence building aren’t they? I just wish I could remember how good they are for fast times every race I do.

AR – You continue to impress. That 20m @ 6.25m/m is a fantastic run. Almost as your impressive sub 3hr the week after a sub 3 attempt. I don’t think you should go into your marathon cautious. You must have some excellent endurance to achieve the back to back marathon last autumn, so if I were you I’d go for it and not worry too much about mile 22.

Sounds like a beautiful ride SJ.

Great run Carbloader. The progressive bit on the end is an excellent way to prepare yourself for the marathon. Don’t go too deep and tired from these LSRs though as you might risk burning out.

A great speedy and progressive 22miler from you Speedy. Nice work.

Nice run and a pb to boot OO. Is it about time you started to think about attempting the Bob Graham round?

Wow. Good running RFJ. What wnakers!

Nice work to run your longest run ever Lumbu. You must have had some satisfaction from that when you got home.

Great pb Menna. Always a bonus to pb whilst marathon training. That time bodes well for the big day. But it sounds like you need to try a bit harder on those treadmill tests! – Although you say 1.23.xx won’t get you there, my 2.54 was run after a HM 1.23.58 pb 3 weeks out.

Good weekly mileage and well done on the unfueled LSR SBD. How was it running without fuel? Empty by 20 miles or surprisingly ok?

More hills Fraser? You must have calves like Arnie!

How do you feel after the cutback week Martin? I often find it takes a few runs before I feel fully recovered.

Sounds like there are other things going on for you at the moment Poacher. Difficult but acceptance of the situation makes sense. No point in stressing about it all.

Great race report and as you say, a very good time for this stage of the campaign KR. Also good to heave learnt something from the run and got an idea on how to put it all right.

Enjoy the cutback week Gul.

DS2 – I think the MLRs are the most under rated run.

Scooby – Where exactly are you that it is ‘warm at 7am in the morning?’

18/02/2013 at 21:48
Keir-'re hired.

Gul- you can have a bit of a sleep in tomorrow.
(And you only have to mention me )
18/02/2013 at 21:51
Not that I've actually done any training today. Half term, so took the day off work and went swimming with my son. Bloody knackered.
Blisters    pirate
18/02/2013 at 21:52

Conversions from HM to full marathon times?
I think that Phil Jones has done the analysis, and the resultant decision is that the more training, and more consistent training, over a period of years will enable the better conversions from HM to FM.

My last data set relates to 2007/2008, aged around 47/48.
2007 HM 83:44, 84:12, 85:35
2007 marathons: 2 disasters.
2008 HM none entered
2008 marathons: 2:59:13 and 2:58:47

Training mileage? Ah, well. I thought that I did 50 to 60 mpw, but my log book data tells a different story, just a bit less. To be honest, I was pretty much at the top edge of my body's capacity for recovery, and my wife's tolerance.

Marathon training started again, after the aborted Gloucs Mara. Tabbed out 21 miles,average 8:40 pace. Not brilliant, the leggies started to get quite tight towards the end. Mind you, The HR/pace ratio kept together throughout. I may have been dehydrated at the start. Nice day for it.

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