Sub 3h15

For anyone trying to crack the 3h15 barrier anywhere in the world

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08/03/2013 at 22:32
Philip_M_Jones wrote (see)

ssc, images seem to be buggers at the moment, and I type small and it comes out normal so fingers crossed. The pace chart is derived form P&D (page 16 of the secpond edition) who say for long steady runs start out gentle but by 4 or 5 miles be at MP+20% and then move up to MP+10% for the last 4 or 5 miles. I tend to get to MP+20% a lot sooner and I also tend to hold MP+10% for a bit longer so for a 20 I am maybe 2, 8, 8 and 2 cool down gentle but not overly slow. A 22 should take pretty much the same time as your anticipated marathon time and I would do 2 warm up, 10 at MP+20%, 8 at MP+10% and 2 cool down.

With this sort of run you do no MP in the session at all.



Many thanks for this.  am i right then that MP runs would be over a shorter distance of say 10 miles?  Also, what does P&D stand for?  (As you can tell, i learn lots from this forum!!)

08/03/2013 at 22:51

Minni - I almost considered coming over just to watch VLM and join you all at The Chandos...but that would be a bit extreme, wouldn't it? Wouldn't it? Hmm, let me check that EasyJet page...

SSC - P&D, a.k.a. The Bible, isthis.

Blisters - Enviable cake-eating, and good miles today.


Edited: 08/03/2013 at 22:52
08/03/2013 at 22:52
SJ - sorry to hear you didn't make enough progress with injuries to give Manchester a go. It's been many a year since I had a trip to Rhyl.

Roads cleared of snow today, so managed 7m easy in the morning, and 6 steady in the evening.
08/03/2013 at 23:22
Hmm, just been checking out the hotels in aforementioned Rhyl. Not particularly exciting! Kinda explains why you haven't been back in a while AR...

Ant, thought not. You'll nail it.
09/03/2013 at 00:20

Ant, I take it the 7 miles @ MP minus 5 is time and not temperature Good pace for an early morning run, and yes big whoop, go for it . Great when the positive vibes start flowing.

Bike It, I sympathise with you. Mothers day could be a bit difficult too. My lad has a football match in the morning then it's a Mothers day / sister in law 40th birthday lunch. Could be a late evening 20 miler then!

Slokey, running is running and biking is biking. Like beef is beef and horsemeat is... you get the picture! Still 2 good activities in one day and part of your new schedule. How did the Newtons feel?

No running today - hurrah! Alton Towers tomorrow hurrah, 20 miles on Sunday Hurrah!

09/03/2013 at 08:20
ssc wrote (see)

Many thanks for this.  am i right then that MP runs would be over a shorter distance of say 10 miles?  Also, what does P&D stand for?  (As you can tell, i learn lots from this forum!!)

Ant explained the P&D. I have a copy that I have read and if anyone wants to borrow it and has some postage stamps (£2.20 for second class each way, just looked it up) I am happy to loan it out.

MP is marathon pace and come marathon day you need to run 26.2 of these back to back. If the marathon was any other distance you would go out and run a marathon, and then  a few weeks later do another one and your body would get used to it until you did a good one. (I did this for a 5k in the summer of 2011, my 18th race in 16 weeks was my PB.) You would also have a broken body.

You therefore need to bake a cake so you build the ingredients up. Say you want to hit 3:15 which is 7:27 pace then you need to do some miles at 7:27, some slower and some faster. If you have done a lot of miles as tempo work (say 7:00) then 7:27 will feel easy. If you have done a long sow run of 22 miles which took 3:15 then running for 3:15 won't be breaking new ground. If you do 10@MP+20% in 1:30 and then do 10@MP+10% in 1:20 then you will get used to pushing hard after your legs start to feel tired. If you do 15 easy and then do 4@MP and one cool down, you get the same but the end part is harder.

There is no single right rule. I know I have 6 m/m pace in my legs and race a lot of 5ks, 10ks, cross country, 10 milers, HM etc at this pace (some a bit faster, some a bit slower) so the pace is not the real issue. I knew that 6:30 pace would feel easy, the question was always for how long.

Interesting GPS article on fetch

09/03/2013 at 09:03

Ant We need you over, well I need a new running top anyway.

PMJ Great explanation.

Blisters Nice 15 miles

Minni Hope you are felling better for the weekend.

13 miles with a 10k race in the middle. I decided to aim for sub 40 pace, as I still have never broken it, a 10k race on a 1.1 flat section with turn and repeat was never going to work.

The mind is such an important tool. I never believed I would do it, I was behind schedule by the third km and during the fifth a lot of self talk about jacking it in was going on. I continued, but the pace was slowing towards 4:12.
Then in the sixth the mind took over, approx 50 metres before I turned a runner passed me going the other way, he was running quickly. Once I turned I focused on chasing him down, thus a 4:03 was bagged. Next one slow, then chase down in 4:04.

Anyway, I hope the above makes sense, when I focused on the guy I ran quickly, when I focused on me I ran slowly. As the end went well I decided to add an extra 1.284 km.

7.01 miles in 6:33 mm (4:04 km), which is bang on my HM PB pace. I am logging it as a tempo run.

09/03/2013 at 11:03
Scooby- was that an actual 10k race or a 10k pace? I too struggle to turn the legs over on anything faster that HM pace. I also try not to focus on other guys.

I ran Newbury parkrun this morning. 3.5 mile plod from home to the start, ran it fairly hard, then ran home for a nice 10 miles.
Forgot to start my watch at the start so not sure of time. Guy behind me came in at about 19 mins, so not a very impressive time.
I do struggle to get off to a decent pace in the first mile in these short races and its only in the last mile when I'm really going for it, I think I should have been doing that pace from the start. Always seen to be playing catch up.

They are a little on the painful side though.
09/03/2013 at 13:07

Nice run Scooby -

13 with 6 at MP(6.45mm) last night and 20 (8.40mm) this morning. The 20 this morning was horribly painful from the start but its finished now. Just to finish the torture took a cold bath for 10 mins at the end of it. They're not too bad once you are in. Off to watch the Rugby at a mates now with the self righteous belief I have earned it.

09/03/2013 at 13:22
Mennania- nice effort there, you're taking things too serious with the ice baths though. I always prefer a nice hot one with some of Mrs moofs bubble bath
09/03/2013 at 13:39
Enjoy Menna! Two quality back to back sessions there.

Moof, 5Ks are grim painfests. But at least they are over quickly.

Excellent tempo effort there Mr Scoobs

KR, I finished the day off yesterday with a swim session so got all three bagged. The Newtons seem to really suit me. I tried them on a treadmill in the week but they didn't have my size so ordered a pair of the 2013 Newton Gravitys on line. As a horrible heel striker (which can't have helped my injury rate) I've worked hard to make sure all of the runs I've done since Christmas have been form focused with an emphasis on midfoot striking. It was nice to see the video evidence on the store gait analysis camera that I seem to do it routinely now. Anyway, I think that's why the newtons feel so good since they have a big cushioned area in the mid foot which gives a nice bounce if you land on it so every step has feedback on form and foot placement. Seem to encourage me to run more quickly too although that might just be down to excitement brought on by the shoes' rather adventurous colour scheme.

The chaps in the store recommended easing into the shoes gradually as they can apparently cause a bit of soreness in your calves if you aren't used to mid/forefoot running. Other positive for them is that they are supposed to last a lot longer (twice as long?) than normal trainers. The lugs on the sole aren't made of EVA so are still bouncy for longer. That hopefully offsets the ??120 price (??130rrp)

3hr ride this morning in the wind and rain. Swimming again this afternoon.
09/03/2013 at 14:41

SJ Nice running and swimming and cycling. Shoes sound good.

Menn Nice double effort. 20s like that are purely for ticking off, but you deserve the drink(s) for pushing through.

Moof I believe short, fast running is something that improves with practice.

The 10 k "race" this morning was a solo run on my 1.1 km (0.7) flat section of marked pavement. Thus I run and turn around, run back and turn around. So, 10 stop/turns for 11.284 km. The only other runner joined just before I was about to turn, so I chased him for the nexrt km, then missed him, then chased the same guy again going the same way.

That probably makes less sense.

09/03/2013 at 16:00

Inter-counties as part of 11M run for me.  Not sure where I finished in the race (5th scorer for A&S) but just managed marathon pace on an undulating and muddy course.  I was glad it was 8k and not 6k (most of our local league races have been 6k) - I spent the 3rd lap catching people!

09/03/2013 at 17:41
Get yourself into a flat 10K race Scoobs. A solo attempt at a sub 40 sounds unnecessarily difficult.

Another block of MP nicely logged Jools.

3.45k swim done in a relaxed 1hr 10.
09/03/2013 at 17:41

Scooby - Great determination to power out a session like that in training. Did the other bloke realise you were chasing him? That would be a bit alarming for him, I'd say!! Btw, was that last year I gave you that shirt, or the year before? It all seems an age ago, anyway.

Slokey - It'll be interesting to hear how you get on with the Newtons.

Mennania - You definitely earned the beers. How did you find the 6M MP chunk last night, and how was your pacing this morning?

Well done Jools - Good leg-strengthening run and another real confidence-booster. If I was a betting man etc. etc.

Moof - A sub-19 5k is never to be sniffed at, esp as part of a 10-miler.

Today was my first real chance to enjoy the taper, as - and you'll like this bit - I stayed in this morning! well, before goin g to work, anyway. I got up a bit later (7.15), made a cup of tea and sat in my armchair and read for an hour. Bliss.

I have the Trubia HM tomorrow, which I plan to do at a conservative 6:40mm, with a 4-5M warm-up first. It's a reasonably fast course and I should have plenty of company, so here's hoping. Is that overdoing it two weeks out from a marathon? Some years I think I've tapered a bit too enthusiastically and as a result, stood on the start line barely being able to remember having done any training at all.

Physio on Monday, as well. 

Good luck tomorrow Minni and anyone else racing/LSR-ing.

Didn't Speedy have an XC today?

09/03/2013 at 17:44

Good racing Jools - do you get to keep the county vest?  And superb HM PB last weekend - well worth the wait

Have you managed to wear a rut in your 1km track yet Scooby?  A good session nontheless!

Enjoy the shoes S-J

Tough back to back sessions Mennania - not surprised today's was hard.

Good turn of speed Moof.

And good to see the Mojo is returning Ant.

10K for me today at Stratford on the Raceway's airfield.  A bit windy but no worse that 2 years ago when I dipped under 38 mins.  Training has been going well and the speed is starting to reappear but given the 1K intervals earlier in the week were taking an average of 4:04 minutes, this was not going to be a day for a PB.  The first two kilometres came out at 4:00 and 3:58 which got the brain excited but these were quickly followed by kilometers of 4:09, 4:07, 4:07 and then 4:16!  Spurred on by an approaching grunter, my faith was restored with the last two kilometers at 4:06 and 3:59.   So, all in all, not a bad run, although it's slightly depressing to realise how slow I am

09/03/2013 at 17:51
moof wrote (see)
Forgot to start my watch at the start so not sure of time. Guy behind me came in at about 19 mins, so not a very impressive time.

To the 238 people who finished behind you it seems impressive, and even better age graded. I'll wave a flag for you and cheer at that result.

09/03/2013 at 17:55

Moof -Totally agree with PMJ - I stalked you and the results page makes happy reading for you.

Good effort SBD - that kind of race will stand you in good stead. You'll pleasantly surprise yourself next time out, I'm sure.

Edited: 09/03/2013 at 18:19
09/03/2013 at 18:59

I no longer have time to read the thread during the week so I've just done a mammoth read back. Typically I can't remember much of what I've read! 

I did indeed have an XC today, also the Inter Counties. It was something of a disaster. I had taken another girl with me and we arrived in plenty of time, parked up and on site by 10.40am (for a race starting at 11.51). We'd been told to look for a red tent, so off we went. 5 red tents, not one of them was Notts. So we went up and down the rows checking every single tent. No Notts. We asked at Derbyshire since most of the folks there would be familiar with the Notts team manager, Harold, nobody had seen him or any other Notts folks. We asked at information, they knew nothing but we acquired a two families also searching for Harold. We all rang him. Many times. No reply. We checked at registration - yes the numbers have been collected. We did the rounds of the tents again. No joy. It was now 11.20am and the two youngs boys with our group of lost runners were due to run at 11.30 so we went down to the start tent in case Harold was there. Still no joy, but I spotted a young lad in a Notts vest with his number pinned to it and pounced on his parents for directions to the 'tent' (there wasn't one, not even a flag). We found Harold at 11.27am. The poor lads missed the start of their race. Joanne and I had 20 minutes to get changed, pin our numbers on, put our chips on and go to the loo (jumping the queue very cheekily) and get to the start tent before we were put under starters orders. No time for any sort of warm up at all. 

I need a warm up, preferably a long one. I did over 4 miles before the Rushcliffe 10k last weekend. I felt unprepared and stressed. I started fine, and it was feeling comfortable until the dreaded stitch hit. I put this down to not having done any strides to get the lungs working. I had to run with my fingers poking in my ribs for the last 3.5 miles. Every time I tried to remove my fingers the pain was so bad I'd have to gasp for breath. It was like cramp in my ribs. I really, really wanted to step off the course, but I've never DNF'd a race yet and my legs were still fine, I just couldn't breathe. I was going backwards by the last lap and was overtaken by hoards of runners, but I did manage to stay in 3rd place on the Notts team, which was a small mercy. I forgot to stop my watch for ages after the race so I have no clue what my time was, but it will be rubbish. 

Really disappointed, I'd been looking forward to this race since January. But on the plus side my legs feel fresh as daisies, so tomorrows longest LSR shouldn't be too much of an issue. 

Edited: 09/03/2013 at 21:03
09/03/2013 at 21:06

Bloody hell Speedy that is so annoying.  What did Harold have to say when you finally found him?

Jools - your XC sounds much better.

Ant - it would be rude of you not to at least try and make it to London.

Moof - nice 5k.

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