Sub 3h15

For anyone trying to crack the 3h15 barrier anywhere in the world

41 to 60 of 38,254 messages
08/12/2010 at 10:27

To be honest KK, this thread should be called 'Disciples of P&D. There are a few splitters / denominations, but generally we all worship the bible. Try this link for a peak at a 55-70 mile week.

FINgers - Show us your baubles!

edit to link to P&D rather than Razzle home page!

Edited: 08/12/2010 at 10:30
08/12/2010 at 10:34
Sue C wrote (see)

Might be tempted to join in. The old thread was so, like....yesterday

Although, 3.15 might be a stretch............. got room for a 3.20-3.25 kind of a girl with a (currently) dodgy back?

Always!! Great to see you back on here. What have you been up to?

08/12/2010 at 10:46
Sue C wrote (see)

Might be tempted to join in. The old thread was so, like....yesterday

Although, 3.15 might be a stretch............. got room for a 3.20-3.25 kind of a girl with a (currently) dodgy back?


We run a fairly broad church here sister - always room on the pews for people of any denomination be it the 2h5xm believers to the 3h2xm parishioners.
Good to see you back on here - care to update the congregation as to what you've been doing recently?
08/12/2010 at 10:50

There you all are.

First night back, wife goes out and all my running buddies move!! Luckily I am not paranoid.

Welcome KK and Col, welcome back Sue.

Thanks for the post(s) MM, great read and lots of informative details.

TAR Bad news on the knee, but the story did make my laugh. Hope for a quick recovery.

My first run (shuffle) in the ice yesterday. Combination of ice and new shoes made it a most unenjoyable run. 5 miles recovery. Plan 8 miles steady today, hopefully it will easier now I know what to expect.

08/12/2010 at 10:53
kittenkat wrote (see)

And so, could someone point me towards a GOOD training plan. I've never actually used one before, I tend to just train ad hoc.

I really want to do it properly this time, as I don't want to lose my champ place. 

Ta muchly!


My views on plans are fairly well known but I'll reiterate them. I'm of the opinion that following a plan (be it FIRST / Higdon / P&D / RW) will be hugely beneficial as long as you stick to it closely. My success at going under 3h15 this year came off following the RW plan to the letter. I reckon that it really wouldn't have mattered if I'd followed P&D or any of the others, it was more the consistency over the 4 months that did it for me.
As you allude, ad hoc and haphazard running won't be as great as regular running will be. You can create your own plan as I've shown Steve how to as long as you follow the basics every week:

Long run (get in 5 x 20 milers)
semi-long run
practice your MP as much as possible (preferably within the above two runs)
as much aerobic filler runs as you can do to make 40mpw your average mileage over 4 months

I don't think you'll go far wrong with that and most of the plans follow that to some degree

08/12/2010 at 11:14
A rare opportunity to join in on one of these from its birth is too good to pass up, even though I'm targetting 800m this year so don't really belong!  Maybe I part-qualify by virtue of my extended MP runs in base training though.
08/12/2010 at 11:22
Moraghan wrote (see)
A rare opportunity to join in on one of these from its birth is too good to pass up, even though I'm targetting 800m this year so don't really belong!  Maybe I part-qualify by virtue of my extended MP runs in base training though.

It'd be great to have you on here Moraghan! The more knowledgeable souls on here the better.
08/12/2010 at 11:26

Oof, me old bones...went out this Holiday morning (Día de la Inmaculada) and did 9m @ 7:24mm, trying (a bit too successfully) to go a bit slower and control the HR, which stayed at an av140bpm. Felt tired and was looking to get it over with as soon as possible. With a whole day to self-indulge, and bright wintry sun early doors, this should have been one of those runs where you fancy doing an extra 4-5m. Instead, it was a get-it-done-and get-home job. Not good.

Welcome back, Sue!

08/12/2010 at 11:37
Matchstick Man wrote (see)
Moraghan wrote (see)
A rare opportunity to join in on one of these from its birth is too good to pass up, even though I'm targetting 800m this year so don't really belong!  Maybe I part-qualify by virtue of my extended MP runs in base training though.

It'd be great to have you on here Moraghan! The more knowledgeable souls on here the better.
The more knowledge the better Moraghan - I know you know a lot of stuff so would be good to hear your input & perspective.
08/12/2010 at 12:26
Hello new thread!
08/12/2010 at 12:51

MM - Just read back through your mammoth posts outlining your marathon history, and there is one thing that is bothering me a bit - Liz said to practise, practise, practise your MP as much as you can, no? This was more or less my approach, although I do realise it probably fatigued me more than I was aware of come the big day, hence not reaching my "potential potential" even though I did nail my planned objective.

What exactly did she prescribe re running at MP?

I still can't see how running slowly 90% of the time will suddenly transform itself into running 26.2 miles dead fast  *runs and hides from the wrath of the wise*

Edited: 08/12/2010 at 13:16
08/12/2010 at 13:09

Ooo - thank you for the warm welcome back, I have a lovely warm glow now

What have I been up to? Mixed year to be honest. I ran 3.27 at Lochaber, which was a pb but it was a pretty poor conversion (although a negative split.... the holy grail!) and I still don't feel that I have yet  run a marathon that reflects the time that I feel I am capable of running.

An odd summer, which went no-where really in terms of training or capitalising on marathon fitness and a change of coach in September (he is particularly grumpy, miserable and runs 800m as his specialism although is a fan of extended MP running.............................)

A good run from September, which saw big gains in fitness, mileage and missing out very narrowly on sub 70 at the Wistow 10 in October.

Sadly, I have struggled since then with a back injury that I can't seem to shake off so I am rather grumpy and miserable myself today ,as I thought that I was improving but clearly not, if today's run was anything to go by

So, I am eating my way through a large box of Marks and Spencer Extremely Chocolatey biscuits and have just entered Edinburgh Marathon, instead of Lochaber, which buys me 5 more weeks of rehab, where I am not running just to marathon train.

Ant - waves! Maybe running slowly 90% of the time allows you to cope with a higher mileage than you would be able to otherwise and the associated benefits of that?

08/12/2010 at 13:22
Ant van Oviedo wrote (see)

MM - Just read back through your mammoth posts outlining your marathon history, and there is one thing that is bothering me a bit - Liz said to practise, practise, practise your MP as much as you can, no? This was more or less my approach, although I do realise it probably fatigued me more than I was aware of come the big day, hence not reaching my "potential potentail" even though I did nail my planned objective.

What exactly did she prescribe re running at MP?

I still can't see how running slowly 90% of the time will suddenly transform itself into running 26.2 miles dead fast  *runs and hides from the wrath of the wise*


Hi, Ant. MM's mammoth posts make for very interesting reading. But I am also still slightly confused. I seem to remember when MM said to keep your slow runs slow and save your best for the fast runs that he said that none of his average paces started with a 7 i.e. 8min/mile + or sub 7min/mile. But unless MM was secretly targeting sub 3hr5, surely MP would be 7:xx min/mile? So where does practise, practise, practise MP fit into this? My understanding at the time, was that the fast stuff was to be tempo or faster. Sorry to be a nit-picker, but I think it would really help to understand this.

 Hi Sue C and welcome back.

08/12/2010 at 14:01

Nice to have a few more people joining in with this thread.

That sounds interesting, TR, about marathon running off 3 runs per week.  I'd be happy to settle for something like that in due course.  I know the FIRST programme has been referred to a few times, but does anyone here have any first-hand experience of using this schedule?

Great to see Sue C checking in again.

30 years today since Lennon was shot, eh?  Bloody blimey, 30 years.

08/12/2010 at 14:10
Matchstick Man wrote (see)
SteveC1975 wrote (see)

I don't mind being the thread guinea pig (especially apt as I am on my fourth Krispy Kreme doughnut of the day (someone's birthday is the excuse)

Will post up my excel file link or screenshots when I have had a chance to look at the P & D schedules.

A few changes I am thinking about, the 20th Mar - Brentwood Half is to run that at HM Pace rather than at MP, but in the context of the training week, i.e. no taper etc, thoughts?

Also, in Mid March onwards, I usually start my rides into work, this is about 16 miles each way, should I can them and wait until after VLM or use them as cross training, in the place of a recovery run?


Steve - don't be afraid to have acut-back week at the time of the Brentwood HM. I'd say that for psychological reasons, running a HM at MP and finding it easy will be far more beneficial for you than running a HM at HM pace on tired legs. I'm / We're not coaching you, just giving you advice based on our experience so it's entirely up to you but if I were in your shoes I'd use that race wisely rather than training through it.

16 miles each way into work and back is about an hour each way right? If I'm being honest I'd say leave it till after London and keep your training specific. However, taking a mental break and using the bike is a great way of keeping fit but mid-March (14th onwards?) is when you should be right in the middle of your heaviest training block so switching to a different type of aerobic exercise is not the best route to acheiving your goal. Would you want to do 32 miles for 5 days or is it just a couple of days a week?


I will probably do the Brentwood HM at HM Pace after a cut down week then, and do some other specific MP training in blocks in the Long Runs.

In regards to the cycling to work and back, I usually only do these when the weather is nice (yes, fair weather cyclist) they usually take me about 45-50 minutes when fit and I only ever do a max of four a week, usually 2 to 3. Might do one a week split by days, i.e. ride in one day and ride home the next.

Feels strange being on a new forum thread, I like the lived in look of the old one!!

Have got some type of lurgy at the moment, so attempted to run on treadie last night and got half a mile before my body just said no..  will give it a couple of days rest.

08/12/2010 at 14:39
Gul Darr wrote (see)

Hi, Ant. MM's mammoth posts make for very interesting reading.
.
For me, too, and I certainly didn't mean for it to sound otherwise.
Edited: 08/12/2010 at 14:39
08/12/2010 at 14:58

 Welcome to newcomers and returnees. 

TAR - I tried the FIRST plan for Abo this year but struggled with it and ended up injured, not blaming the plan as I was probably carrying the injury from Stratford , but  I found the pacing for some of the runs hard to achieve.

Edited: 08/12/2010 at 14:59
08/12/2010 at 15:13
Ah, sweet jesus, I thought I only about 3 posts to read and then discovered this...  I'll read back, honest guvnor!
08/12/2010 at 15:18
Gul Darr wrote (see)
Ant van Oviedo wrote (see)

MM - Just read back through your mammoth posts outlining your marathon history, and there is one thing that is bothering me a bit - Liz said to practise, practise, practise your MP as much as you can, no? This was more or less my approach, although I do realise it probably fatigued me more than I was aware of come the big day, hence not reaching my "potential potentail" even though I did nail my planned objective.

What exactly did she prescribe re running at MP?

I still can't see how running slowly 90% of the time will suddenly transform itself into running 26.2 miles dead fast  *runs and hides from the wrath of the wise*


Hi, Ant. MM's mammoth posts make for very interesting reading. But I am also still slightly confused. I seem to remember when MM said to keep your slow runs slow and save your best for the fast runs that he said that none of his average paces started with a 7 i.e. 8min/mile + or sub 7min/mile. But unless MM was secretly targeting sub 3hr5, surely MP would be 7:xx min/mile? So where does practise, practise, practise MP fit into this? My understanding at the time, was that the fast stuff was to be tempo or faster. Sorry to be a nit-picker, but I think it would really help to understand this.

 Hi Sue C and welcome back.


Ok - during the SSX thing I did 68-70% of my running at greater than 8m00s pace and the other proportion at pretty much less than 6min pace because that's how things fell with the RW plan. There was minimal running at MP. This is what Liz (personally) didn't like about the plan and what she tried to rectify when she gave me advice in the 5 weeks between London and Chester.
If it the SSX experience had been true Liz Yelling coaching I think you would have seen a lot more MP work fitted into the weekly schedule and a lot less intervals. The ratio of slow to fast(er) would have been v similar (maybe 80 to 20) but instead of doing *just* 20 miles at MP + 60secs I would have been doing blocks of MP work within those runs.
If you listen to the Marathon Talk podcasts you'll get a flavour of this theory and also Liz (on FB and Twitter) does give away marathon specific training that she does - for instance 2 x 5 miles at MP within a 17 mile long run.
She tries to get people to learn how to run at MP on tired legs so:
finishing long runs at MP
2hr runs alternating 15mins at MP/15mins at MP + 60secs
w/up then 15mins at MP, 5 x 2mins at brisk pace, 15mins at MP, w/down (circa 10 miles)
2 x 3 miles at MP within semi or long runs

Ant - using TR's "cake" analogy you need to bake the cake (base/aerobic) before you add the icing (MP). If you run at MP or near MP you won't reach your true potential. I know you've had success with a sub 3 result and as a slower runner than you I'm probably not in a position to preach but I do think that you're capable of better results if you could slow down the bulk of your runs

08/12/2010 at 15:25
Thanks, MM. That makes a lot more sense now.
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