Sub 3h15

For anyone trying to crack the 3h15 barrier anywhere in the world

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08/12/2010 at 15:25

As a practical application / guide I'm looking at Wokingham HM 9 weeks on Sunday and these are the lessons I'm putting into practice:

Not to focus on a specific time goal until maybe 2/3 weeks out
The bulk of my runs at 8m00s pace (I'm aiming at approx 50mpw)
Intervals once a week with the club (fartlek, Kenyans, mile reps, hill reps)
First 4 weeks just building the miles
Test myself in week 2 (parkrun) and week 4 (5 mile) to give an indication of form to lead into:
Introducing HM paced work in week 5
HM paced running to be contained within the semi-long run (11 miles) and long run (2hrs)

So it's v similar to what I'm proposing for a sub 3h15 marathon runner, just adjusting the target pace and length of semi and long runs

08/12/2010 at 15:29
Moraghan wrote (see)
A rare opportunity to join in on one of these from its birth is too good to pass up, even though I'm targetting 800m this year so don't really belong!  Maybe I part-qualify by virtue of my extended MP runs in base training though.

How does running at MP help you as an 800m runner then? Would running at MP help those wishing to run faster at distances between 5k and HM for instance?
08/12/2010 at 15:53
Matchstick Man wrote (see)
Moraghan wrote (see)
A rare opportunity to join in on one of these from its birth is too good to pass up, even though I'm targetting 800m this year so don't really belong!  Maybe I part-qualify by virtue of my extended MP runs in base training though.

How does running at MP help you as an 800m runner then? Would running at MP help those wishing to run faster at distances between 5k and HM for instance?

Interestingly Jack Daniel advocates MP running in his Running Formula book when training for all distances - I forget his reasons precisly tho but the I recall it is something to do with comfortable hard training stimulus without being a tempo session.
08/12/2010 at 16:12


After a full read back....

kittenkat wrote (see)
Yes, thanks, I've decided I've got to train differently. I can get away with not training really for half distances or below, but it's just stupid to blag times at marathon distance. And I want to run one where I don't curse for the whole of the last 6 miles!

I've "trained" for 7 marathons now and have yet to achieve a curse free last 6 miles! But curse frequency is directly related to adherence to training plan...

08/12/2010 at 16:28

3.03 this spring which I hope to beat in April.  I post on 3.15 and 3.00 threads as the sub 3 thread goes down to 2.1x these days and I'm just about the slowest person there...

And now I really must read back this new thread, or I can't legitimately say I've been on it from the start!

08/12/2010 at 16:32

My half pb is about the same at 1.27.xx and that translated into 3.17 at London last year so you're in the right place!

My goal at VLM was 3:09 to get a GFA place but wheels fell off a little towards the end so having another crack at it in Brighton in the spring.

08/12/2010 at 16:33
x-post Joolska, of course you're in the right place, I was refering to KK...
08/12/2010 at 16:37

X-post, Fingers, I was replying to KK!

10M planned for me tonight.  In true thread-stylee for the day I listened to my alarm at 6am, peered at the weather forecast and decided the chances of just about freezing temperature were much higher this afternoon than this morning.  That extra hour in bed was lovely!

Read back complete. 

It may be that I notice because Spanish holidays rarely co-incide with English ones, but Ant seems to get a lot of bank holidays.  Jammy beggar.

Welcome to Newbies; Lurkers: join in!

08/12/2010 at 16:47

MM - Thanks for that. I like (well, not sure if "like" is the right word) the idea of incorportating stretches @ MP into long and medium runs.I always try to finish the long 'uns with at least 4k @ MP.

Question is...what is MP going to be this time? Eh?

Fingers/KK - You may well have a curse-free marathon one day but it will never be totally free of either terror, pain, misery or frustration. Not if you're doing it properly, that is.

Have I missed something out there? On the negative side, that is...

08/12/2010 at 16:51

Jools - That's what you get for living in a Catholic country. Tragically, Boxing Day is NOT a holiday!

An extra hour in bed? Bad, bad girl! Good luck tomight. If that was me, I'd be fretting all day about whether I really should have gone earlier and whether I can be bothered to go out later...

08/12/2010 at 16:54
I'm pretty disciplined.  Anyway, there's nowt good on the telly and I think the neighbours are due a break from violin practice
TR
08/12/2010 at 17:06

Sue C too  nice one, I read of you sticking up for me recently so I thank you !

I’m a believer in getting the legs used to MP in long runs. But the closer you get to the pointy end the harder MP is to maintain, you wont get the likes of marmite doing a 20 at MP in a build up but I like it. I guess that Ant isn’t really at his potential MP so isn’t frying himself, MP running is tough to maintain. Most folks on here will still have endurance as their key limiter because they are relatively new or run relatively low mileages, so the cake baking approach (with a bit of optional icing at the end) is still a decent option IMO. I don’t see that any too fancy helps on the big day if endurance is the limiter, 2:50+ marathon running isnt about leg speed.

I have a new little term now and its “making your matches last”. After a few campaigns your body adapts quicker to marathon training and IMO if you bang out too many miles, too many fast miles, too many long runs and too much MP,  then after a while you start digging yourself into a hole (or burning too many matches), which leaves you with an empty box of matches on race day. I started on the 20s immediately after Christmas this yr and cos I find them a chore and no longer fear them I was smacking them out with big chunks (eg 8M) at a pace that I could get no where near on race day. So I guess the choice is either slower runs if you want to do lots of long runs or less long runs if you want to smack them. I’m taking option 2 this time.

Stimulate don’t annihilate !

08/12/2010 at 17:10
Ant van Oviedo wrote (see)

Question is...what is MP going to be this time? Eh?

I find this interesting.... let your effort in your training session dictate what is marathon pace and not a pace derived from potentially achieving a hypothetical time.

If plucking a pace out of the air this was a plausible way to identify what MP should be, shouldnt we all be declaring 4:40mm as MP?

08/12/2010 at 17:10
Matchstick Man wrote (see)

How does running at MP help you as an 800m runner then? Would running at MP help those wishing to run faster at distances between 5k and HM for instance?

IMO MP running is great upper end aerobic development irrespective of final race distance.  I think it should be a regular fixture in every runner's base period at the very least. 


FINgers wrote (see)

Interestingly Jack Daniel advocates MP running in his Running Formula book when training for all distances - I forget his reasons precisly tho but the I recall it is something to do with comfortable hard training stimulus without being a tempo session.

I have always felt he massively overplayed the use of "classic tempo", i.e. 1 hour race pace, at the expense of MP running although I believe he changed his stance in later editions (I think I only have the first edition of the running formula).
08/12/2010 at 17:16
With regards to MP.  I find it helps to differentiate between marathon pace intensity and marathon goal pace for the majority of the year.  I'd generally leave the switch to practising marathon goal pace to about 8 weeks out from the race.  The rest of the time train at MP intensity based on recent shorter race times or feel (if you have the experience) - your likely final short distance conversion to the marathon (and therefore goal pace) be damned.
08/12/2010 at 17:21
KK/FINgers -  I'm with you with a decent HM time 1:27:25 and after 4 mara attempts PB is 3:16:21.  Hopefully will go Sub 3:15 at Gloucester in Jan.
08/12/2010 at 17:59

Kittenkat/Barry/FINgers - that half to full distance conversion was my nemesis too. It still isn't great but is going in the right direction. For me increasing quality with MP/HMP incorporated in to medium and long runs has helped - as did a fair few hill sessions early in campaign - perhaps counter intuitively a reduction in overall training volume led to an improvement. Maybe that ties in with TR's "matches lasting" theory.

BandB - I just go to various municipal gyms in the city so no arsing about with inductions/fees blah blah blah....there aren't too many used condoms or needles in the changing rooms

Still insanely cold here. If I see another pile of snow I think my testicles might just explode

08/12/2010 at 18:04
My HM PB is 1.25.26 from last year (2009) and managed a 1.26.21 earlier this year in the VLM build up. However my Marathon time of 3.22.10, I felt didn't reflect my potential. Come marathon day, I think I lacked the endurance in my legs - something I hope to rectify this time round.
08/12/2010 at 18:11
KK: How did you get your pirate flag next to/near to your name?!
08/12/2010 at 18:56
Race Jase wrote (see)
Ant van Oviedo wrote (see)

Question is...what is MP going to be this time? Eh?

I find this interesting.... let your effort in your training session dictate what is marathon pace and not a pace derived from potentially achieving a hypothetical time.

 I said this in a wistful, before-marathon-training-really-starts-in-earnest sort of way, in reference to what may or may not be possible over the coming months.

I'm thick, but not stupid. 

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