Sub 3h15

For anyone trying to crack the 3h15 barrier anywhere in the world

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08/12/2010 at 20:13

Interesting points being raised already. I am also of the believe that lack of endurance is the biggest problem at our level and hopefully the mid long and slow LSR (time on feet) will really help me push on.

8 miles today, av 8:12 pace, slightly fast, however I did manage to slow and av 8:19 for the last 4, which I consider ideal. Due to running on ice/snow, I was trying to focus on comfortable running, rather than looking down the entire time, like I did yesterday, this turned out at 8:06mm av. I lot more enjoyable run than yesterday.

Off to EuroDisney tomorrow, if CDG is not fogged bound, back on Sunday. Not sure about internet access. So good luck to all racers/LSR at the weekend.

08/12/2010 at 20:23

Ant, apologies if that came across in any negative way and it wasnt directed at you (or anyone). Dont get me wrong dreaming of a target time is encouraged. It's what can keep you motivated through the difficult winter months. My point is that I think sometimes people spend too much of their time chasing a target time and derive their training paces from that rather than from what they're actually capable of at that particular time in the training cycle. 

The thing is though, I dont think one truly knows what MP is until after the race anyway by which time it's obviously too late to make any adjustments. It's interesting, and I've defo been guilty of this, that most people over estimate what MP is (evidenced by lots of huge positive splits). Why is that? And is this more or less common,in slower or faster runners? Does volume of training have any influence in how well someone can judge what their MP should be? Or are runners just by nature very bullish and over-confident?

Edited: 08/12/2010 at 20:25
08/12/2010 at 20:29

You lost me with the match thingy TR but nice to exchange banter with you again Have you considered doing a run that alternates MP and HMP? That really changes your perception of the effort required for MP work. I agree entirely that, if given 6 miles at MP to do for example, that would feel like a reasonably substantial workout in itself. However, running MP/HMP miles  x 3 instead makes the MP work 'feel' easy.

I have had a lot of benefit in a short period from extended 'upper aerobic' workouts at around MP (however you describe that!) 

Shame my back is buggered at present to undo all that work!!!

08/12/2010 at 20:32

No need to apologise at all, Jase. There's a fine line between taking full advantage of all the trainng done, and pushing too hard for something which was always unrealistic.

TBH, I don't really think I'll be able to say, "Right, I'm going to go at such-and-such a pace" until mid-March. Hence all the dreaming of what could be....

08/12/2010 at 20:34
Welcome back to the returnees and welcome to the new threadsters.

Moraghan wrote (see)

IMO MP running is great upper end aerobic development irrespective of final race distance.  I think it should be a regular fixture in every runner's base period at the very least. 

Moraghan - given MP is just a slow tempo pace and if we believe tempo runs provide the optimal training stimulus to improve your lactate threshold what, in your view, is the training benefit of MP runs?  I think there is often a danger that people get so obsessed with MP runs that they do them at the expense of tempo runs and receive a weaker lactate threshold training stimulus.

11 miles for me today.  Should have been out in the lunchtime sunshine but went for the treadmill in the nice warm gym option.  Ran progressive with the last 5 miles at 7:14 m/m pace.  Bit boring so must get outside next week

Edited: 08/12/2010 at 20:35
08/12/2010 at 20:36

This bring us round to a topic from a couple of weeks ago RJ.

Part of the problem for us runners who are somewhere between 3 and 3.30 is that the running calculators are not accurate predictors for us. Many people on the sub 3 thread found McMillian etc pretty accurate predictors based on their 10m and HM times, but often were over predicting their 10k times. Where as a poll of the sub 3.15 thread found that the predictors were pretty accutate through the distances, apart from being wildly optImistic regarding our Marathon times.

The conclusion drawn, as TR states above, is that for the majority of us in this thread, running 30 - 60 miles per week, it is endurance which is our limiting factor which explains why so many of us have 'died' in the second half of the marathon.

So I don't think that it is bullish or over-confidence, we are using the tools provided to us, its just that we are not up to the standard required to make these tools accurate.

08/12/2010 at 20:40

The best 10k runners make the best marathon runners.

I understand Moraghan's leg speed over shorter distances and then build endurance theory and think you are correct in planning to try it for 2012 RJ in order to avoid a platau. However IMO most of us here are not good enough / don't do enough miles for leg speed to be the main limiter. We need a bomb proof aerobic base and endurance most of all. When this is in place and we are close to 2.45, then I think we can safely say that we can cope with the distance and go back to developing speed.

08/12/2010 at 20:41
Then again, as someone pointed out over the weekend on another thread to me, what do I know, I've only run 1 marathon.
08/12/2010 at 20:52

Sue C - if you burn all your matches too early then you dont have any left to light your candles on race day. Basically I mean that I dont want to be a spent force by race day. I  havnt tried any HMP/MP combo, I'm carp at all that and when I do progressive runs I just run harder, which ends up too hard at times. I guess wehn I next do MP I should try and run at exactly the right pace - not easy gadgetless ! Easy running on a bad back will keep your running at a higher level than you think.

Keir - 1 is enough to have an informed opinion, that 1 is a lot better than some folks will ever achieve. I should have stopped after my first 1 (and I've only done 3) cos I may not better it. You sound like you know what you're talking about to me.

Edited: 08/12/2010 at 20:54
08/12/2010 at 20:57

Congratulations Knight Rider!!!

(Am I allowed to do this?)

08/12/2010 at 21:14

I have a confession to make…

I'm on the shortlist for the Super Six

Vote for knight rider

Had to keep this one quiet but have been dying to talk about it too.
Obviously very excited about getting a place and if I get picked will do my best to achieve my goal of a sub 3.15. Slight change to last years set up but the principal I guess is still the same.

I know I have the speed on the shorter distances up to half marathon and my times reflect this, but I need the coaching/training to convert this to the full distance. Having a coach like Steve (in his 35th year of marathon training) or Bud (with a sucess for coaching endurance athletes) would be an immense opportunity for a “normal” Club athlete like myself. I know MM gained a hell of a lot of great advice / mentoring / support from his part of the SS earlier this year and I hope to soak it up too.

I know B&B, Keir & Minni were also going for this and I was surprised not to see any of you at the Boot camp. Not sure how they do the selection process, but gutted none of you got through too.

** I can't believe I had the mother of all spots on my forehead on the day of the bootcamp**

08/12/2010 at 21:28

Excited to 'spot' you on the list KR. Glad to you 'squeezed' in. Opened the link and 'zits' got my vote....

... anyone seen my coat?

08/12/2010 at 21:32
Voted for you knight rider. So made up another person from this thread is on the shortlist and I hope we can all get behind you to get you voted in. Top tip; e mail all your mates, put the voting link on face book, tell everyone at your running club to vote for you and if you're on other forums get them to vote for you too. I did this last year to good effect!
How was the bootcamp? Tell us about it as we didn't do this last year
08/12/2010 at 21:35

Well done Knight Rider. Now you need to go touting for votes like all the others are!!!!!!!!!!! Good luck in any event.

TR - I have tried the running easy approach whilst having physio. On Monday's session he really loosened off my back and it felt heaps better but it has tightened up again and I think (if I am being completely honest with myself) then that is because I am running on it too much in an effort to maintain fitness. I could be completely wrong though. As the next appointment is on Friday (luckily I can swap and there was a cancellation) then I am not losing anything by resting Thursday and finding out what I can actually do or not. I think I need to get fixed before making any further plans.

Still, it's my first 'real' injury. I have had a few days off here and there for niggles and a touch of tendonitis by doing two marathons within 5 weeks of each other in 2009 but I have been lucky overall and I remain positive

There's always wine!!!

08/12/2010 at 21:51

Sue C - sounds like you're pretty robust then, hopefully its a short term thing. I'm sure the booze will help relax it !

Knight Rider - never heard of the others, I'll vote for you. Would absolutely hate to do it myself though.

08/12/2010 at 21:51
Blimey, you lot can't half talk!

Voted for Knight Rider

5.5 very slow, very icy miles tonight. I wanted 8 but no-one else was daft enough.
08/12/2010 at 22:09

Cheers for the support guys

The spot has now calmed down a bit although it's bad when your 6 year old son takes the mick out of you.

Just posted a thread to help my cause without any mention of smacking bottoms and being called Mildred!

Will be back shortly with some details on the bootcamp and doing laps of a slushy running track.

08/12/2010 at 22:18
Well done Knight Rider!  You just got my vote!
08/12/2010 at 22:24

KR - just cast my vote. My choice of candidate shall of course remain strictly confidential but it might just rhyme with Bite Slider. Good luck !!

Has everyone else voted in the other categories. Seems to be a vast gulf in current achievement between the sub 3 candidates whcih could either present RW with a relatively soft target or a very tough one

08/12/2010 at 22:41
Seen Better Days wrote (see)
Moraghan - given MP is just a slow tempo pace and if we believe tempo runs provide the optimal training stimulus to improve your lactate threshold what, in your view, is the training benefit of MP runs?  I think there is often a danger that people get so obsessed with MP runs that they do them at the expense of tempo runs and receive a weaker lactate threshold training stimulus.

How did the faster tempo runs (1 hour race pace so we are clear) become so popular?  I think (happy to be corrected though) that most of the original research on running to improve LT involved a control group and another group doing 20 minute tempo runs.  So, the fair conclusion was that tempo running was a good stimulus to improve LT.  But they never did compare the effectiveness of the 20 minute tempo run with the MP (for example) as stimulus so I would never, ever agree that the tempo was optimal.

Obviously there is a trade off between intensity and duration.  I just believe that you'll get a much better training effect from a 8 mile MP run than a 4 mile tempo run.  I believe for most runners the two are approx equivalent in overall effort but with the former you spend twice as long addressing your LT. 

I can't help thinking that these famous 10 mile club burn ups in the old days are what made distance running so strong - and more than likely these were principally at MP as were Lydiard's base runs.

I think it's a major mistake to ignore any pace around the LT zone but that you have to cover all your bases between easy paces through to 10k (quicker for some).  Put another way in the example of paces for a 3:15 marathoner:

Easy Pace:  8:15 

Steady State: 7:45

MP:  7:27

Tempo:  6:55

10k:  6:40

Too many people ignore the SS / MP zones and alternate from easy pace to tempo.  This only makes sense to the brain in terms of slotting into certain paces, not to the body.  The result being that there is a gaping hole in aerobic background.  Tempo runs have their place but in the past this has been overemphasised at the expense of other paces.

Truth is I don't much like tempo pace.  I think it's the one pace in the typical range that can be missed out.  I still use it but it would be more of a late season LT maintenance or even peaking workout or some "close to race pace" practice for a 10 miler.  In a generic marathon schedule I'd do the bulk of the early work at MP and 10k pace (this helps the LT but also with a vo2 max component) and then finish off with some tempo work to tie together the more fundamental paces.

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