For anyone trying to crack the 3h15 barrier anywhere in the world
Sue C too nice one, I read of you sticking up for me recently so I thank you !I’m a believer in getting the legs used to MP in long runs. But the closer you get to the pointy end the harder MP is to maintain, you wont get the likes of marmite doing a 20 at MP in a build up but I like it. I guess that Ant isn’t really at his potential MP so isn’t frying himself, MP running is tough to maintain. Most folks on here will still have endurance as their key limiter because they are relatively new or run relatively low mileages, so the cake baking approach (with a bit of optional icing at the end) is still a decent option IMO. I don’t see that any too fancy helps on the big day if endurance is the limiter, 2:50+ marathon running isnt about leg speed.I have a new little term now and its “making your matches last”. After a few campaigns your body adapts quicker to marathon training and IMO if you bang out too many miles, too many fast miles, too many long runs and too much MP, then after a while you start digging yourself into a hole (or burning too many matches), which leaves you with an empty box of matches on race day. I started on the 20s immediately after Christmas this yr and cos I find them a chore and no longer fear them I was smacking them out with big chunks (eg 8M) at a pace that I could get no where near on race day. So I guess the choice is either slower runs if you want to do lots of long runs or less long runs if you want to smack them. I’m taking option 2 this time.Stimulate don’t annihilate !
Ant van Oviedo wrote (see)
Question is...what is MP going to be this time? Eh?
I find this interesting.... let your effort in your training session dictate what is marathon pace and not a pace derived from potentially achieving a hypothetical time.
If plucking a pace out of the air this was a plausible way to identify what MP should be, shouldnt we all be declaring 4:40mm as MP?
Matchstick Man wrote (see)
How does running at MP help you as an 800m runner then? Would running at MP help those wishing to run faster at distances between 5k and HM for instance?
IMO MP running is great upper end aerobic development irrespective of final race distance. I think it should be a regular fixture in every runner's base period at the very least.
FINgers wrote (see)
Interestingly Jack Daniel advocates MP running in his Running Formula book when training for all distances - I forget his reasons precisly tho but the I recall it is something to do with comfortable hard training stimulus without being a tempo session.
Kittenkat/Barry/FINgers - that half to full distance conversion was my nemesis too. It still isn't great but is going in the right direction. For me increasing quality with MP/HMP incorporated in to medium and long runs has helped - as did a fair few hill sessions early in campaign - perhaps counter intuitively a reduction in overall training volume led to an improvement. Maybe that ties in with TR's "matches lasting" theory.
BandB - I just go to various municipal gyms in the city so no arsing about with inductions/fees blah blah blah....there aren't too many used condoms or needles in the changing rooms
Still insanely cold here. If I see another pile of snow I think my testicles might just explode
Race Jase wrote (see)
Ant van Oviedo wrote (see)Question is...what is MP going to be this time? Eh?I find this interesting.... let your effort in your training session dictate what is marathon pace and not a pace derived from potentially achieving a hypothetical time.
I said this in a wistful, before-marathon-training-really-starts-in-earnest sort of way, in reference to what may or may not be possible over the coming months.
I'm thick, but not stupid.
Interesting points being raised already. I am also of the believe that lack of endurance is the biggest problem at our level and hopefully the mid long and slow LSR (time on feet) will really help me push on.
8 miles today, av 8:12 pace, slightly fast, however I did manage to slow and av 8:19 for the last 4, which I consider ideal. Due to running on ice/snow, I was trying to focus on comfortable running, rather than looking down the entire time, like I did yesterday, this turned out at 8:06mm av. I lot more enjoyable run than yesterday.
Off to EuroDisney tomorrow, if CDG is not fogged bound, back on Sunday. Not sure about internet access. So good luck to all racers/LSR at the weekend.
Ant, apologies if that came across in any negative way and it wasnt directed at you (or anyone). Dont get me wrong dreaming of a target time is encouraged. It's what can keep you motivated through the difficult winter months. My point is that I think sometimes people spend too much of their time chasing a target time and derive their training paces from that rather than from what they're actually capable of at that particular time in the training cycle.
The thing is though, I dont think one truly knows what MP is until after the race anyway by which time it's obviously too late to make any adjustments. It's interesting, and I've defo been guilty of this, that most people over estimate what MP is (evidenced by lots of huge positive splits). Why is that? And is this more or less common,in slower or faster runners? Does volume of training have any influence in how well someone can judge what their MP should be? Or are runners just by nature very bullish and over-confident?
You lost me with the match thingy TR but nice to exchange banter with you again Have you considered doing a run that alternates MP and HMP? That really changes your perception of the effort required for MP work. I agree entirely that, if given 6 miles at MP to do for example, that would feel like a reasonably substantial workout in itself. However, running MP/HMP miles x 3 instead makes the MP work 'feel' easy.
I have had a lot of benefit in a short period from extended 'upper aerobic' workouts at around MP (however you describe that!)
Shame my back is buggered at present to undo all that work!!!
No need to apologise at all, Jase. There's a fine line between taking full advantage of all the trainng done, and pushing too hard for something which was always unrealistic.
TBH, I don't really think I'll be able to say, "Right, I'm going to go at such-and-such a pace" until mid-March. Hence all the dreaming of what could be....
Welcome back to the returnees and welcome to the new threadsters. Moraghan wrote (see)
Moraghan wrote (see)
Moraghan - given MP is just a slow tempo pace and if we believe tempo runs provide the optimal training stimulus to improve your lactate threshold what, in your view, is the training benefit of MP runs? I think there is often a danger that people get so obsessed with MP runs that they do them at the expense of tempo runs and receive a weaker lactate threshold training stimulus.
11 miles for me today. Should have been out in the lunchtime sunshine but went for the treadmill in the nice warm gym option. Ran progressive with the last 5 miles at 7:14 m/m pace. Bit boring so must get outside next week
This bring us round to a topic from a couple of weeks ago RJ.
Part of the problem for us runners who are somewhere between 3 and 3.30 is that the running calculators are not accurate predictors for us. Many people on the sub 3 thread found McMillian etc pretty accurate predictors based on their 10m and HM times, but often were over predicting their 10k times. Where as a poll of the sub 3.15 thread found that the predictors were pretty accutate through the distances, apart from being wildly optImistic regarding our Marathon times.
The conclusion drawn, as TR states above, is that for the majority of us in this thread, running 30 - 60 miles per week, it is endurance which is our limiting factor which explains why so many of us have 'died' in the second half of the marathon.
So I don't think that it is bullish or over-confidence, we are using the tools provided to us, its just that we are not up to the standard required to make these tools accurate.
The best 10k runners make the best marathon runners.
I understand Moraghan's leg speed over shorter distances and then build endurance theory and think you are correct in planning to try it for 2012 RJ in order to avoid a platau. However IMO most of us here are not good enough / don't do enough miles for leg speed to be the main limiter. We need a bomb proof aerobic base and endurance most of all. When this is in place and we are close to 2.45, then I think we can safely say that we can cope with the distance and go back to developing speed.
Sue C - if you burn all your matches too early then you dont have any left to light your candles on race day. Basically I mean that I dont want to be a spent force by race day. I havnt tried any HMP/MP combo, I'm carp at all that and when I do progressive runs I just run harder, which ends up too hard at times. I guess wehn I next do MP I should try and run at exactly the right pace - not easy gadgetless ! Easy running on a bad back will keep your running at a higher level than you think.
Keir - 1 is enough to have an informed opinion, that 1 is a lot better than some folks will ever achieve. I should have stopped after my first 1 (and I've only done 3) cos I may not better it. You sound like you know what you're talking about to me.
Congratulations Knight Rider!!!
(Am I allowed to do this?)
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