sub 4 hour group,if anyone wants to get together

Outdoor fitness is a really good read and lots about climbing, triathlon, biking, endurance, much wider range of stuff. RW just is the same old articles.

Nice pic Jovi. I'm off for a sports massage too. Enjoy. or not.

Running on empty? 

I have, in the past, done some great early morning runs up to 8 miles on empty so there must be some truth in it.

Is Fleet open for entries yet? 

I usually do a couple of my long runs during a marathon build up without any gels, only water, but I will have had a decent breakfast beforehand. I think there's probably a pay off between being empty and therefore not being able to put as much into the workout as usual and therefore perhaps not getting as good a training effect... while on the other side you're perhaps teaching your muscles to speed up capilarisation and mitochondria manufacture.  I've always understood that it's an ok thing to do but not too often because it's stressful on the body and therefore takes more out of it...and therefore you need more recovery. Swings and roundabouts.  I wouldn't do it with a 10 hour fast or anything though. That sounds a bit more extreme.

In other news, I ran.  Knee alright now but was a bit sore post-run.  Aim to try again tomorrow. I've a lot to catch up on.

I have done some good runs on empty up to about 9 or 10 miles but being of a lean disposition I am starving hungry by then and need to run home for a large breakfast. Did a nice cross country on Sunday on getting out of bed early but was flip starving by the time I got home after 7.5 miles of very hilly cross country. The first mile and a half is uphill over 600 feet I think on to Longstone Edge then down a bit up some more and down down down a very rough puddle strewn track, great fun but needed some fuel by the time I got home again........
Have you tried the old blue rolller on the hips and hammies then the knees can sometimes be related IM. I have dodgey knees and hammies and find the blue roller thingy helps me keep running okay. Been 18 months and fit still so happy.... Need to see a smiley face in your box not a one.....

 sorry to hear that Ickle - your flipping knees...

good to hear you are up and at em Jovi and ready to run already ... (c r a z e e e )

preparing for tomorrows hideous day ...   wish me luck - will be on the cider by the end marathon or no marathon ...

our lovely Dave the coach has gone to New York.. was on the last flight in - for the marathon next weekend - he has taken his wife and two young girls - not sure I would have been brave enough to go - hope everyone there is okay ..

Fleet? hmmmm .....

Susan - hope the sales event goes well and isn't too stress inducing. 

Ikle - boo to dodgy knees. 

mcs - sounds a tough race - not sure I could manage that on no brekkie.

AH - good to hear you got in a run and not too many side effects - hope you make it out again tomorrow.

UmB/Dave LeFleur - how soon does Fleet half tend to fill up? With Jovi tix & Thunder Run entries opening this week I'm a little strapped for cash at the mo!

I have been sensible today and not run.  Will probably take another rest day tomorrow and then go our for a run with my mate Adam on Wednesday. He's trianing for Marathon des Sables so needs to get used to doing some runs at a slower pace & I need a nice slow recovery run.

Jovi fanclub tix on sale tomorrow - the tour madness starts!

Fleet half could be boys V girls???

Fleet entered 

UmB's entered Fleet, too.

Smeagol's in hospital today for his knee op.  Good luck matey.

Good luck, too, to Susan for her presso today. Of course she'll be marvellous, won't she .

Jovi and Susan - Fleet won't fill up tooo soon I don't think.

FRC I think the Liz Yelling Lanza camp is full.  If I somehow get rich between now and March - unlikely - I'll see if I could get a cancellation.  Would be wonderful to go without the pressure of having to cycle every day.  And I could do some lovely sea swims without freezing my wotsits off.

hi all

ikle sorry to hear about your knee, not nice

hoping smeags gets on well

oh good luck indeed susan!

jovi been watching you jovi madness you love it!

susan hope it all settles in NY, its not been good eh?

It's like totally ok/fine as in not severely hurty or anything. Just a gentle initial pain, but I know from bitter experience, that that gentle not severe hurty pain gradually hikes up at about 12 miles to make further running impossible. The feeling seems to be, on here and also from my brother, that there must be something to be DONE. My brother thinks orthotics. My last physio was convinced it was just hydration and protein, but that didn't work either. My right knee used to be problematic too, but that one seems to be fine now.

There are SO many people on here, that have had knee problem, ITB of one kind or other, at one time or other, and they've seen the pain go with physio/kit/strength training, etc.

So I think something must be able to be done. But what? I really want to be able to run this last marathon, preferably sub 4, and then I'm happy to stick to 10 and 5Ks. I'm just not sure what direction to try next. Don't want to spend loads of money on more advice/orthotics and then find the problem is the same.

FRC, I had my gait analysed at Niketown. They said pronation was mild to medium and gave me a +2 shoe after analysing thoroughly, so I don't think it's that. Thanks by the way, for offering me some suggestions. I don't really do any trail running at the moment, so maybe that could help? When are the Thunder runs? I like the sound of those. Fun. I reckon I could to a couple of 10ks. =)

Sports massage is the only thing I've found on these forums, that I haven't really tried in any regularity. Maybe that's a good plan...

Ikle, Nike town equals only Nike trainers? No idea about the +2 thing. what shoes do you wear then? There are always more brands to try. I had to run with gel heel insert cup things for awhile, but just one foot, to take the impact out with tendonitis.

Trail running? I've run along the sea defence concrete path near to me a few times, thats hard on my knees, 5 minutes later I can be off road and zero problems, less repetitive on joints hitting the same areas constantly? off road, you are constantly altering feet, at least for me has helped legs/ ankles, you might go slower, have a few hills in there, but then when you are on the flat, you can go faster. Try a mile or two along beach or near woods?

Thunder Run is the last weekend in July I think, 27th or 28th. the 10k is all trail. and you run through the night with head torches. Fun! way better than a marathon, but for 24 hours. and CAKE. did I mention the cake? BBQ too. veggie stuff also.

AH, Liz Yelling website says" Places going fast". Mike Gratton one is cheaper in Portugal. Was also more the question, would it make a huge difference doing a warm weather camp? How much did it help you for the ironman?

I have Nike lady Lunareclipse +2 apparently.

I've tried on so many trainers in my lifetime! Bum, Bum. Bum.

I'm supposed to be doing some school work during my holiday. That's why I keep writing on here and not doing any work.

Poor Ikle.  So bloody annoying for you.

I know I'm not a physio, but Ikle I can't believe one said that protein and water would sort your knee out!  Just can't believe it!

If it really is ITB pain get a sports massage therapist to release your TFL and glute max.  The ITB acts as a tendon to both those muscles so if they're tight they hike up the ITB so that it pulls and chafes on the side of the top of your tibia and causes the pain. I've found this really helps people (and me).  Bizarrely, massaging the ITB itself doesn't necessarily help - (more likely to get your lateral quad and hurt your femur).

However, working on TFL etc doesn't deal with the causes of the tightening ... which gets you back to lots of glute exercises, one legged squats and lunges etc. And general core strength. I know you did loads of those before - are you still doing them?  The annoying thing is that you have to keep doing them. For ever. Especially if you've had probs - it suggests you're prone to dodgy ITB-irritating biomechanics.

Am not at all sure that orthotics are the answer to anything really.  FWIW I think you'd be better off going to Stride UK or The Running School to have your whole running style analysed to see what biomechanical issues you have.  Most of these can be sorted out with a dedicated strengthening programme.  Dull and annoying - but safe, sensible and effective.

Bless you AH. X

My brother is doing Running School right now. I am still doing the exercises but probably not often enough. Thanks so much. It's really getting me down. But I'm more than happy to put in the work.

Thunder run sounds good,,,, pencil me down.......guy I know came fourth as a solo runner doing 100 miles awesome............ Best wishes with the knees IM dont give up.....hows the back any issues with that. Off to the lakes till Monday have  a good week, time to get wet me thinks.