sub 4 hour group,if anyone wants to get together

all welcome

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05/02/2013 at 16:37

DtF, Shame I missed you on the line at Henley.

Wabo, AH looks superfit because she is superfit

DtF pretty much in agreeement with your LSR comment, same as both Fido and I on previous page, a wider pace range is fine though so 9:15-10:30, especially for the men amongst us.. we often go too fast, don't have enough endurance then crash out... or so the theory goes. Ladies? Women are of course far better distance runners because they don't do this..

The bit I don't agree with for Tom Ikle and other sub 4 hopefuls is going way faster than marathon pace on long runs.. no point? Runners will be dipping into their anerobic rather than aerobic side... which is the whole point of the long run right now early in training. Further into training, can get tighter on that range to 9:30 ish.

Faster than marathon pace on your medium mid week run...( so for sub 4 I'd be going 8ish min mile or under). And if you can do the LSR much faster and not knackered after, then maybe you could go faster so your MP is faster. I like my long runs to feel really easy, run well inside myself.. not breathing hard at all, chatting to friends. Its usually on trail so naturally slower. Not tempted to "race" or force it.

05/02/2013 at 16:38

TOTP ! ...

05/02/2013 at 18:01
Dave the Flower wrote (see)

In my experience I have trained to what my body is telling me and even completed LSR at a far quicker pace than perhaps I should (c. 30 secs faster than PMP at times) but I've always made sure I recover well afterwards.

 

 

 

 

FRC - yes... this bit is certainly not recommended for many people! And only goes to show how rubbish I am at pacing! When I was training for Chester last year one of my LSR was run at 3:35 pace - 8:12min miles (but then it was only 15 miles ) The others were all run at around 9:05 - 9:10 min miles (PMP + 30 secs) to achieve 3:46

 

05/02/2013 at 18:31
What a lot of stats
05/02/2013 at 21:14

Stat-mad me... 

05/02/2013 at 21:49

Susan, can't make the 15th - going up to Yorkshire that day - sorry.

05/02/2013 at 21:59
Report from track session.

We ran round and round .. Some more rounds some little short half rounds.
The wind was windy.

Stopped
05/02/2013 at 22:00
re 15 th Howard .. Another time.
Dave le Fleur can't make tomorrow sorry
05/02/2013 at 22:15

I'm not sure I really can either, D the F. Sorry about that life too crazy too much to fit in especially hilly run. Moop. My MA isn't growing either, it's shrinking.

06/02/2013 at 10:09

Sometimes something has to give, doesn't it, Ikle?  Today I've made life much easier for myself (even having time to post on here ) because I've decided to have a rest day and not fit a swim in. And breathe. You've got so much on your plate at the mo. 

On LSR pace, something to think about is the physiological purpose of an LSR. It's to build endurance ie to prompt your body to build the infrastructure it needs to keep going for a long time. If you run too fast in your LSRs, your body doesn't get those prompts and therefore it doesn't adapt.  For endurance your muscles need more mitochondria (although lactate/fast tempo promotes those, too), more capiliaries in your muscles to GET the oxygen to the mitochondria, and, really important, running long and slow teaches your body to burn fat. If you don't burn fat very efficiently you're more likely to hit the wall.

So I think it's useful to keep in mind the purpose of each type of run you do so that you're not tempted to go too fast in LSRs (great you've done a fastish run but you haven't done as much as you could to get your body good at fat burning and you can probably manage on mostly glycogen up to 18 miles anyway, so you could merrily be thinking you're getting your long runs done... but they're not really doing you much good and you'll still hit the wall). Also, you're more likely to over stress your body if you run them too hard so you don't recover as well - so you can't train as hard the following week and you're more likely to get ill/injured.

It's the same with tempo/lactate training - it's easy not to run fast enough.

FWIW I think it's worth doing the first few of your really long runs dead slow/easy (they're still never 'easy' at the end, though are they?) then perhaps start introducing some slightly faster/MP efforts in the last couple of long runs.  But really, the speed element of a marathon comes from good threshold runs.

06/02/2013 at 10:13

Oof  that's a long post.   Just something else to think about!

I had a newish club member last night - she only started running in the summer and clearly has some talent but OMG she's a handful. She's doing VLM. Won't bore you with the ins and outs but she did 19 last week and 23 at the weekend!  I'd already explained a month ago she didn't need to do such long runs and why (she had intended to do 30 before VLM). There's definitely an awesome marathon/ultra runner in there but OMG. I'm still not sure I've convinced her not to do so much.  She asked last night if it was normal to feel so tired during marathon training... .

 

06/02/2013 at 10:17

Lastly in completely non-running news, I'm off for lunch today at L'Ortolan, a Michelin starred restaurant, with my best friend from school (Tonia, Susan).

The chef is a WADAC friend so I'm hoping that our ridiculously well priced  three course set menu meal deal might get augmented with a few little extras.  He might show us the kitchen, too, which woudl be brilliant. He's Alan Murchison if anyone's interested. HAs been on Great British Menu lots and does various TV bits.  God knows how he fits in so much training, too. He runs a million restaurants, actually cooks in them, is a brilliant (animal) xc runner and international duathlete.  I think he probably just never sleeps.

Haven't got anything smart enough to wear, though...

06/02/2013 at 13:35

Thanks FRC, Hen, Dave and everyone else for the advice on pacing longer runs. Feel much happier about running them so slowly, but very impressed with the pace some people are getting on their long runs.

Yes Wabo it was great doing the long run midweek, it made the weekend much more relaxing. Back to normal this Sunday with a 15 miler first thing.

Howard did some beginners ballroom and latin a couple of years ago and really enjoyed it. I was keen to carry on but it took out a complete night and I don't think my wife was too keen as I was a fairly rubbish partner. Kept ending up in the corners! Sorry to hear about the theft, very stressful.

Club run tonight, 7 miles followed by a committee meeting. Weather doesn't look good, Artic wind.

06/02/2013 at 18:20

The wind will make you tougher, Tom! When the going gets tough, the tough get running.

I've got my long run tomorrow - feels very soon after the last one on SAturday, but if I do it tomorrow, I can race the season's last xc on Sunday as my tempo run.

Howard - dancing is marvellous for the core! Terrific combined with pilates. You will be a core god before long. Lovely to do something new together.

 

06/02/2013 at 18:23

Oh yes, Howard's horrid theft. 

Just back from THE most amazing lunch. We were very spoiled because we paid for the three course table d'hote but he actually gave us the seven-course tasting menu. It was FAB U LOUS.

06/02/2013 at 22:42
How long is this long run AH so soon after your 17.5 miler ? ?
Glad you are able to counsel your track newbie and virgin marathoner on being careful with the mileage
07/02/2013 at 00:38
Lunch sounds fab AH. I recognise the face, Must be a pattern with chefs since michel roux jr I think has done a sub 3 marathon?

Your new recruit sounds like a handful. Just need to slow her down before injury or overtraining catches up? And doing things like 2 long runs in 5 days.

Reason I commented on the LSR pace plus 60-90 secs. Actually funny.
It was being discussed on the 3:30 thread. And also being discussed on even faster 2:45 thread, everyone is at the same point in training. Click here to read

The sub 2:50 runner on there often does 9-10 minute miles - you need to go slower to go faster. Hens info is spot on why, Adaptation. You want to get more used to the fat not glycogen burning range of your body.

And remember Tom, the ones doing the runs slower, potentially are the ones learning best how to do this and cope better on race day. Fast time now means nothing, and many won't be able to keep that pace going for 26 miles... It's their 15-18 mile pace when they will then run out of glycogen energy. Big positive splits too.

My ultra seems a strangely good idea now, lots of 9 - 9:30 minute miles, some trail, back pack on for extra resistance and only 6 cubes of clif bloks used (=2 gels), plus cake and water/ electrolyte. Okay, mini cornish pastie, pork pie, sausage rolls at checkpoint 3, but they're good sources of fat surely? That's my excuse anyway.
07/02/2013 at 07:28

Did 7 hilly miles. If one looks at the graphs, this one has more bumps which is very satifying. Thing I find with hilly runs is that if they are hilly enough one feels like one has run 15 flat miles by the end, because it's so tiring! I'm glad I did it. Needless to say didn't want to really. I'm going to France (Paris) next week with work. Will need to do lots of running. What fun. Hope I don't get lost.

All the advice and reassurance about long uns has been great so thanks. Now feel utterly reassured that I'm on track. Went running with a friend youngster (late 20s ish) who is running her first marathon (VLM) and it really put things into context for me.I'm doing alright.

Happy running all.

07/02/2013 at 08:07

I will justify my two long runs in 5 days.

Have to do xc race on Saturday for club champs so today is only day I can fit it in.  There's no way I could do it tomorrow, then race xc the next day. This way I get  a day off between runs. Could do it on Monday, but can't cos of work. Could do it on Tuesday next week but that means... I'd be doing two long runs in 5 days cos of Bramley 20 the following Sunday. Had complete day off yesterday. No swimming, no pilates, no nothing. Just eating

The upside is I don't have another long run till next Sunday, so that's 10 days between LSRs.

Do I get let off now?

07/02/2013 at 08:11

Actually the thing most likely to hamper my training at the mo and make me ill is stress.

 

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