Talkback: ASICS Target 26.2 Team: Colin

Introducing the second member of our ASICS Target 26.2 team - Colin (aka knight rider) PB Hunter Colin will be mentored by Steve Smythe on t...

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19/12/2011 at 13:44

Minni, I think pace could be an issue and controlling it more at the beginning and thinking about it, what is the best warm up to do before a marathon? There are many schedules for the 16 weeks of training, but what about just before the race, what kind of warm up is best so that you get the muscles ready for the impending race? What sort of warm up do people do?

Speedy, not necessairly taking a break at the moment, although last week was just 31 miles and I think this week will probably be something similar. I'll basically be following the RW sub 3.15 schedule, with a few tweaks to it. Due to start on boxing day - 1 week today. I'll be getting a report in the post in the next few days from BUPA with a more indepth findings, so I'll be able to get some stats for the Geeks (me included!).

Oscarr, I'm pretty sure 20 mile runs done at MP would be too much in training given the amount of recovery your body would need afterwards.

19/12/2011 at 14:09
The warm up before VLM usually consists of standing in a queue for the portaloos for ages, repeat, stand in squished corner of pen. I imagine Paris will be much the same. You have to treat the first mile or so as your warm up.

Do give yourself a couple of days off before you start, won't you. Better now than in a few weeks because you burnt out.

I ran today. All of 2.3 miles. Woo. I was full of coughs and nose-blows afterwards but seems to have settled again now. Just getting things moving I suppose. I'm in no rush other than that I'm going a bit stir crazy.
19/12/2011 at 14:14
Never warmed up before a marathon and I'd echo what Speedy says about using the first mile as a gentle introduction. Even taking 3 miles to get up to speed isfine. Better to start slow and finish strong than set off like a rocket with enthusiasm and burn your matches by the 5km marker
19/12/2011 at 14:18

Congratulations on being selected.

Is it scary knowing that people will be following you for the next few months on this thread or will it spur you on even more to hit your targets?

Look forward to seeing your schedule and how it will be tweaked.

Good luck

19/12/2011 at 14:21
Matchstick Man wrote (see)
Never warmed up before a marathon and I'd echo what Speedy says about using the first mile as a gentle introduction. Even taking 3 miles to get up to speed isfine. Better to start slow and finish strong than set off like a rocket with enthusiasm and burn your matches by the 5km marker
Keir (who may be masquerading as We 3 Keir's of Orient are...) seemed to do it pretty well at Abingdon: I can't recall his exact tactics but I recall his first 5k was the slowest of the race.

I'll wave the geek flag as well, numbers are wonderful.
19/12/2011 at 16:23
All I want for Christmas is my two fifty marathon wrote (see)
oscarr wrote (see)
KR - thanks for the feedback re pace for LSRs - 60 secs slower than MP will be a challenge for me but is somehting I will certainly do.  4hr target means 9m MP and 10m LSR pace - "..simple!.."  Look forward to seeing your schedule.  Bet you're still on cloud nine?
The +60 is a loose thing. P&D say long runs should start out at +20% and move up to +10%.  If MP is 9 m/m, then you should be between MP +54 and +108 seconds.


Thanks 2:50.  Wow, +20% is even slower than I think I could be comfortable with but will give it a try.  +10% is fine.  Have certainly come to the conclusion from all the feedback that I really do have to slow down my pace in training.  Thinking about the following as a base plan;

1.  LSR - as above, MP+20% building to MP+10% - some done as progressive ones with last few miles at half pace

2.  Tempo (longish 4 to 8 miles) - half way between MP and half pace

3.  Mile repeats - 10K pace

4.  Yasso 800s - 5K pace 

Any views anyone?

19/12/2011 at 16:30
Oscarr, why would you finish long runs at HM pace? I would have thought finishing at MP would be more relevant to getting used to running at intended pace on tired legs.
Obv not on every long run though!

Tempo is at the pace akin to how far you can run in an hour. For KR that's about 9 and a bit miles, for Mo Farah it would be almost 13miles.

19/12/2011 at 16:43

My pacing has always been

  • tempo 10mile pace
  • LT reps - 10km pace
  • VO2Max reps - 1500m pace
  • Always ran yasso as prescribed i.e. time in minsecs the time for marathon in hrs:mins building up to 12

The best warm-up for the marathon I've found is a nice cuppa, followed by a stroll to the start line

19/12/2011 at 16:47
MM - great feedback, thanks - the idea behind HM pace in last few miles of LR is to get used to running on tired legs but maybe finishing at MP is more sensible.  Certainly plan to mix up LR pace with some at no  faster than MP+10% and some with a few miles at MP at end.
19/12/2011 at 16:56

KR - do you do your LSRs at same time of day as mara races ? Are you practising mini carb loads the night before and experimenting with fuelling strategies morning of LSRs ? Have you tried long runs without fuel or with fuel at different intervals ???? Just some thoughts

Sounds like you had a cracking time getting a-poked and a-prodded and having various bits of yourself measured in Londonium

Keir did indeed do his slowest 5k at Abo over the first 3 miles thanks to me holding him back. I'll take all the credit personally for slowing him down and meaning he had such a good race overall . Nothing to do with his months of hard training or anything !

Agree you don't need any warm up for a marathon apart from a few toilet visits and thorough evacuation

19/12/2011 at 17:19
Choisty, can you clarify what you mean by LT reps and VO2 Max reps? I tend to do mile reps slightly faster than 5k pace - I'd guess about 3k pace although I've never actually raced that distance. The other reps we do are about 0.6 miles (can't remember my pace for these - it's been a while since I did that session), or 1.8 miles (about 5k pace). I've often wondered if I'm doing them too fast, but it seems to work for me.
19/12/2011 at 17:49

Speedy Goth, yep I'd say a bit quick...however if you can manage 5x1mile at that pace without a drop off in performance you should be OK. Although it could mean you're not racing fast enough!

 LT reps are 1mile reps and longer

VO2max are short reps 400's or 90sec hills

19/12/2011 at 18:05

Fraser, when mara training I do my LSR's in the morning on either Sat/Sun. Ususally try and get out anytime between 7.30 - 9.00am. It did cross my mind about running in the morning as i tend to do all my running at night to fit in with family and work and i agree it is good to be able to do these kind of runs at the same as the race time. I've not experimented with mini carb loading the day before LSR's, might be worth a punt to see what that does. One thing I am going to do in training is taking on a recovery drink at the end of a session. I picked up an SIS recovery bottle on Saturday which does about 10 servings. Does anyone else use these and do you use these after every run? Would have thought just after the more intense runs?

Imteresting talk about the paces that you do your training at Choisty, seems like you have had good practice at knowing what paces suits you. I think it will be interesting to see what paces will be reccommended from Steve for the different sessions.

19/12/2011 at 18:09
oscarr wrote (see)

Thanks 2:50.  Wow, +20% is even slower than I think I could be comfortable with but will give it a try.  +10% is fine.

oscar, what are your recent races and PBs? How did you determine MP? I think we raced Sundaty at Bearwood.
19/12/2011 at 18:34
All I want for Christmas is my two fifty marathon wrote (see)
oscarr wrote (see)

Thanks 2:50.  Wow, +20% is even slower than I think I could be comfortable with but will give it a try.  +10% is fine.

oscar, what are your recent races and PBs? How did you determine MP? I think we raced Sundaty at Bearwood.

Yes, raced Sunday for Reading Roadrunners.  MP is based on my target of sub 4hr and times in 20 mile races when not in mar training (3:00 to 3:02) and pace in marathons before blow up!  Other times are (PB/Current) for 10K 46:20/48:00 - Half 1:44/1:48 - Mar PB 4:10.  I've run much faster 10k and halfs in the past but at age 58 my times are gradually on the up !!  Will be at Tadley XC on 8th Jan.
19/12/2011 at 19:47
oscarr wrote (see)

 MP is based on my target of sub 4hr and times in 20 mile races when not in mar training (3:00 to 3:02) and pace in marathons before blow up!  Other times are (PB/Current) for 10K 46:20/48:00 - Half 1:44/1:48 - Mar PB 4:10.  I've run much faster 10k and halfs in the past but at age 58 my times are gradually on the up !!  Will be at Tadley XC on 8th Jan.

I am obviously not an expert at runing aged 58 but the normal conversion rules would say sub 4 is more than possible off your HM times.

I suppose a lot of the problem is the range of times: your 10k currently is 7:41 and MP for 4 hours is 9:10 and MP+20% is 11:00, about 43% slower than your 10k pace. For me the figures work out at 5:55 for 10k pace and MP+20 is 7:47 so 31% slower.

19/12/2011 at 20:23

KR- A good alternative to a commercial recovery drink is milk with nesquick powder added, I always used to use sis rego until a guy from the BOA recommended the milk and said it is just as good, more natural and loads cheaper. oh and a lot of the current olympians are using it as well.

I tend to agree with Minni on the cramp issue and tend to think the two marathons you ran with cramp, were too fast at the start, the 2010 race where you were held back at the start was your pb race, it could be the reason why ?
I would also echo others and say no pre race marathon warm up, just some easy first 5 miles, in a marathon there is plenty of time later on to run quick miles,  if you really want to.

Paris is quite contained at the start, not the room or superb organistion that London offers and most tend to get to their pens earlier and stake there claim to a place in the caged off pens, so be prepared for the French way of peeing in the open, ladies as well.

19/12/2011 at 20:28

Echo what other say about a marathon warm up - I've never warmed up.  Its often just not feasible (ie London).    KR did you do a lot of MP miles in your training previously?  Just wondering if you need to practice that more to help the cramp.  And are you going to try the pickle juice?!?!

19/12/2011 at 20:50

Minni, I've still got to find pickle juice to see what it actually tastes like, although I have a good idea .
I'm definitely coming round to starting off a lot slower than my last 2 attempts, as I think the VLM start did make me go of slower, but ironically, it probably helped. Interesting to hear other people's warm up or lack of before a marathon.

Shaggy, I remember being at Anfield in the late 80's when the ground was still all standing. At half time we were just hanging around when all of a sudden the crowd parted. The reason - someone didn't want to go to the toilet so decided to just have a pee on the terrace and everyone was trying to avoid the “warm yellow river”!

Oscar, you've got some good shorter race times there and still improving. I think you should be able to crack that sub 4 hour mark.

5 miles tonight round the block at a steady 7.23 pace. It's my works Xmas meal tomorrow, so I won't get out till Wednesday, but just keeping it steady this week and not going too mad - well it is Christmas.

19/12/2011 at 20:57

Oscarr - "at age 58"  -  hurrah, I'm not the thread "old git" anymore !! 
(Welcome, btw).

Like Minni, I never warmup prior to mara.     

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