Talkback: Lucozade Sport Super Six: Christina (sub-3:00)

Follow the progress of just back from a run, our sub-3:00 hopeful, as she receives expert advice from mentor Paul Evans

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29/12/2009 at 12:44
Cheers tony . Sounds good. I'm Hoping to do more or less the same schedule as that
29/12/2009 at 12:48
JBFR... may i wish you a very healthy 2010 and look forward to following your progress to the mall in April....lol... I will be a good bit behind you...
29/12/2009 at 15:46

TR - I think the runners of the past used all the resources they had available to them at the time.  Ron Hill experimented with depletion diets, shaving his legs etc. etc.  He told us on Sunday he would never use a treadmill, but others nowadays do, as they've grown up with them.  Just because something wasn't used in the 70s or 80s because it wasn't widely available then, it doesn't mean it would not be a useful training tool now.

JBFAR - HR data is useful stuff to reflect on and can also tell you a story of a particular run or race.  I only wear mine about once a week now as I pretty much know what is happening in my body, but I did use it a lot as I went from running 70mpw all too fast with clubmates to a more structured approach where the easy runs needed to be objectively easy and the faster runs within a certain zone of effort.

Drills - Mike Gratton had Hilly do some to correct areas of weakness.  Fast feet, heel flicks, knee lifts.  They definitely help with co-ordination and strength.  I'm sure your mentor will be able to give you more specific advice.

29/12/2009 at 15:59

TS, was your 2.54 at Abo?

I learnt a lot from training for Abo this year. I just didn't do enough work at or above race pace. I will use the same basic schedule, but might merge it a little with the Garmin 3hr. The thing I like about the Garmin one is that it gives very specific times for each run, making working out the required pace easy.  The schedule I used before said something like '10m steady'. What's 'steady'? 8m/m? 7.30m/m? 7m/m? It's open to a lot of (mis)interpretation.

My planned races this year pre-VLM are the Heartbreak Half (31 Jan), Lytchett 10 (14 Feb), Silverstone Half (14 Mar), & either Eastleigh 10k or Bournemouth Half (28 Mar) depending on whether I want a speed session or whether I feel like incorporating B'mouth into a long run.

I always wear a HRM. Don't necessarily look at it on the run, but I will have a look at it post run. At least I have the info at my disposal if I need it in the future.

29/12/2009 at 17:23

Hi Christina

 Hope you are well

BR- is correct there are Drills you can do to try and correct the problem, ie heel flicks, high knee's fast feet, also making a concise effort on your easy runs to try to correct the problem, the only problem with that is the second you put your self under pressure ie a race we tend to revert back to our old bad habbits, can I suggest that if the above does not correct the problem, you seek advice from the Luzoade team phyio, how might be able to help, have you changed your shoes recently ?

 I would not get to bogged down with times at this stage we have 16 weeks of training/racing a head of us !

I am more than happy with your racing schedule, and to be honest would like you to spend January getting in to the training programme, but happy to work around any race you might want to do ?

29/12/2009 at 17:34
Scruffmeister wrote (see

TS, was your 2.54 at Abo?

I learnt a lot from training for Abo this year. I just didn't do enough work at or above race pace. I will use the same basic schedule, but might merge it a little with the Garmin 3hr. The thing I like about the Garmin one is that it gives very specific times for each run, making working out the required pace easy.  The schedule I used before said something like '10m steady'. What's 'steady'? 8m/m? 7.30m/m? 7m/m? It's open to a lot of (mis)interpretation.

My planned races this year pre-VLM are the Heartbreak Half (31 Jan), Lytchett 10 (14 Feb), Silverstone Half (14 Mar), & either Eastleigh 10k or Bournemouth Half (28 Mar) depending on whether I want a speed session or whether I feel like incorporating B'mouth into a long run.

I always wear a HRM. Don't necessarily look at it on the run, but I will have a look at it post run. At least I have the info at my disposal if I need it in the future.

Yes it sure was at Abingdon....

If you look  HERE

you will find the training paces. You can also adjust your finish time up and down, which is what I used for Abo this year....and it worked for me...

My planned pre VLM are Stubbington 10K, Ryde 10M, Bramley 20, Fleet 1/2 and Eastleigh 10k...

TR
29/12/2009 at 19:34

BR - agreed it is useful training tool.

But my take is this - Christina's tergat is 2:59 so it doesnt matter a scooby what her HR is in training, how fast she can run a 10k or how many speedwork sessions she can do. Its all about maximising the percentages by hitting 1/2 way in 1:28:30 ish and holding on.

She has won open water swims and done IM and 1/2 IM races, but as far as I understand it she doesnt routinely run much. SO teh most important thing for her is long runs and medium long runs, IMO every weekend that has a 10k or similar race in it is a lost long run and is taking money from the bank instead of topping up the bank. There is also a danger of tapering for small races and being dis-illusioned by them when the race times are compromised cos of marathon training.

I think there is a big danger here in doing the wrong sort of training and racing build up. sub3 for a woman is simialr in sub2:45 for a man in that its a fair ask and with Christina not being that regular a runner its even harder with now only 16 weeks to go.

Edited: 29/12/2009 at 19:35
29/12/2009 at 19:37
Hi JBFAR, just popping in to say good luck with the training for sub3 at VLM. Got mine at Abingdon this year and will be trying to do it again on the big stage. My training starts on New years day.
29/12/2009 at 20:31
TR - not arguing with anything else you say but using a HRM in her `marathon paced' runs will give her a fairly good idea of what the MP will be come April 25th.  As you say - it's a case of building the endurance.  So would you be suggesting that the RW Garmin schedule she has to stick to is not the optimum for optimising her chances of sub 3?
29/12/2009 at 20:39
If JBFAR has done IM and 1/2 IM distances surely running endurance shouldn't ba a problem, TR and 16 weeks is more than enough to see her make improvements?  Also, she has done a 37 minute 10K in the past, which shows she's been at the level required to go sub 3, so shouldn't take her as much as somebody who has never been there to get back to that level.
TR
29/12/2009 at 20:56

BR - I agree with you that the HRM could be a useful tool, but it wont make or break her campaign, and she wont know what her HR should be during a marathon. I dont know whats in that schedule, but I know what training i'd get Christina to do if i were her coach.

Hilly - Christina is a very strong swimmer and the IM is more about the bike than running, I might be wrong but I dont think that she routinely runs many miles, so I'd like to see her running more longer distance runs, as I dont reckon 16 weeks is a very long build up for someone like that.

TR
29/12/2009 at 20:57
might be talking bllx as usual though !
29/12/2009 at 21:07

Christina

good luck with everything

i was going to throw in some realistic bits of advice, purely as i see anything always as on the day

but i'm not really sure you need it

Plus, i'm more than sure that the crowds will inspire you and really drive you on

29/12/2009 at 21:15

TR - it does say on her profile that she's been running for 22 years.  So even if she doesn't do big miles she will be one very fit lady from all those years of exercise.  Yes, she may need to a adjust to being on her feet for longer, but she's not a novice to marathons having run 3:13 off not many miles.  Therefore in my opinion she is in a far better position than many going for sub 3 with her background and age.  But as we know nothing is guarenteed.  I've got myself into sub 3 shape a few times and only pulled it off once!

29/12/2009 at 21:22

TR - here's the first 5 weeks:-

WEEK ONE

Mon
5M (miles) (approx 40 mins) easy
Tue 4M (approx 30 mins) slow with a few gentle strides
Wed 6M (approx 46 mins) slow
Thu 5M (approx 34 mins) steady
Fri 4M (approx 31 mins) easy or rest
Sat 5M (approx 32 mins) brisk hilly cross-country run or race
Sun 12M (87-93 mins) slow

WEEK TWO

Mon 5M (approx 40 mins) easy
Tue 1M jog, then 3 x 2M (or 11-12 mins) fast, with 800m (4-min) jog recoveries, then 1M jog
Wed 7M (approx 53 mins) slow
Thu 1M jog, then 3M (approx 20 mins) brisk, then 1M jog
Fri 4M (approx 31 mins) easy or rest
Sat 6M (approx 41 mins) steady off-road
Sun14M (approx 105 mins) slow

WEEK THREE

Mon 5M (approx 40 mins) easy
Tue 1M jog, then 5 x 1M (or 6 mins) fast, with 400m (2-min) jog recoveries, then 1M jog
Wed 8M (approx 61 mins) slow
Thu 6M (approx 41 mins) steady
Fri 4M (approx 31 mins) easy or rest
Sat 8M (approx 53 mins) brisk hilly cross-country run or race
Sun 16M (approx 2hr 05) slow

WEEK FOUR

Mon 5M (approx 40 mins) easy
Tue 1M jog, then 8 x 800m (or 3 mins) fast, with 200m (1-min) jog recoveries, then 1M jog
Wed 9M (approx 70 mins) slow
Thu 1M jog, then 3M (approx 19:30) brisk, then 1M jog
Fri 4M (approx 31 mins) easy with strides
Sat 4M (approx mins) easy or rest
Sun 1M jog, then race 10K or 5M, then 1M jog. Aim for a sub-38:00 10K or sub-30:00 5-miler

WEEK FIVE

Mon 5M (approx 40 mins) easy
Tue 1M jog, then 6M (or 45 minutes) fartlek, then 1M jog
Wed 10M (approx 75 mins) slow
Thu 1M jog, 4M (approx 26 mins) brisk, then 1M jog
Fri Rest or 4M (approx 31 mins) easy
Sat 6M (approx 40 mins) steady off-road
Sun 16M (approx 2hrs) slow

 For single runs, the mileage total does seem quite low.  With doubles added in, it would be an ok schedule.  Would you think many guys we know would get to sub 2:45 off those weeks?

29/12/2009 at 21:37

I have to say looking at that schedule it does seem to be a lot of 4-5 milers in there.  Also, I would like to see the long run up to 20m by week 5 and it isn't.  I'm aiming to follow as much of Mike Gratton's schedule of 80-100m per week off his 2.09 website as I can manage.  There is another which is 55 to 75 miles per week, which only has 4 mile runs as a second run of the day.  Who is it who thinks that JBFAR stands a better chance of hitting sub 3 with the schedule BR copied above than with the 55-75mpw (or even the 80-100mpw) which does seem to get the long runs and medium long runs up to a decent length in the first couple of weeks?

Here's a link to the schedules...

http://www.209events.com/file/178.doc

TR
29/12/2009 at 22:17

Hilly - maybe I'm talking bllx then

BR - agreed, theres lots of short runs, which could be added to with doubles. But i'd rather see a 10 than a 5 + 5. As it stands in 5 weeks time (11 weeks to go ?) you'd have bagged a 12, a 14 and 2 x 16M as the longest run, with the midweeker only just up to 10M. Marigold and Padams could run a 2:45 off that, I wouldnt try it myself though. Too many 4, 5s and 6s in that schedule for me.

I understand that this is an exercise in proving RW plans though, but are you allowed to "up" the distance of some of the runs ?

My "rules" are that cos I only run 4 or 5 times/week then if I'm going to don the trainers then I dont come home for an hour minium, and its over a month since I ran less than 10M, but I'm tyring to build my endurance up again after a carp year. JBFAR - I'm keener than most to see you go sub3 - for obvious reasons. I'm just trying to point out whats needed in my numpty opinion. 

Cheerful Dave    pirate
29/12/2009 at 23:55
Hilly wrote (see)

Also, I would like to see the long run up to 20m by week 5 and it isn't.


I wonder if this is one area where JBFAR's endurance background isn't what the the basic schedule was aimed at - it seems to me too that the long run could probably get longer sooner.

But there's a reason why Paul's a mentor and I'm not - he knows a lot more about distance running and training for it than I do!

30/12/2009 at 00:49

With regards to the RW sub-3 schedule, no one seems to actually want to say it! 

You know what I mean....

30/12/2009 at 02:47

They're trying to be polite Moraghan!

80MPW is a fairly high level of training (particularly for an athlete like JBFAR who is quick for a lady but not lightening)- I remember having analysed Paul's training at one point. I got his schedule and it looked very scary with 100+ mile weeks on- then I broke it down and actually had a look and reckoned he was running about 650 minutes a week (6:30mm) -only 50 minutes more than my 80mpw! Difference was the average pace was about a minute quicker- same as he would run a marathon about a minute quicker.

So if JBFAR is doing 80- guessing she would averaging around 8:30mm then she'd be running 680 minutes per week or more minutes per week than Paul was in the build up to London.

 You're also talking about building up an athlete who hasn't run a huge amount of volume, and if those RW schedules are a fair measure of her regular mileage, doubling the volume she's handled before (at least in running terms) within 3 and a half months given a two week taper- to my mind an athlete could possibly hold that volume increase but it'd all have to be done a) Very slowly (i.e. little at even MP) and b) split it doubles and finally c) without a decent long-run. IN short she'd either be working so hard to get the mileage in she wouldn't be able to include any marathon specific work or b) she'd get the marathon specific work in (long tempoes, long runs, progressive MWLR etc.) and her body would be so fried from putting it all in and dealing with the extra mileage there'd be little useful progress until about 6 months down the line.

Apologies for talking about you in the third person JBFAR!

Looking at RW schedule I'm struck by in week 5- "16 miles in 2:00 - slow"  personally I certainly wouldn't find running 16 miles at MP+30 seconds slow- it'd definitely be doable but it wouldn't be slow!

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