Base Training

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16/09/2003 at 16:59
And if 2secs per mile per lb of fat is correct (and in my experience it is) - I should be 6min/miling at 145bpm by the time I hit race weight. Very exciting (for me anyway!)
16/09/2003 at 16:59
16/09/2003 at 17:29
Fair way for me to go yet then...
16/09/2003 at 17:32
Right, a couple of weeks of easy running then I start banging in the base miles.

Given the fact my marathon goal is in April what long runs should I be doing? 2 hours per week?

Also I have read you don't necessarily run every run at the same HR.

I'm thinking of morning runs @ 65% WHR - about 140 bpm

For evening runs the following...

Monday, Wednesday, Friday and Saturday @ 70% - 145-155 bpm

Tuesday @ 160 bpm - 75%

Thurday @ 170 bpm - 80% WHR - lactate threshold run.

Sunday - would 65% be right?
16/09/2003 at 17:39
Pantman - quick question for you:

How do you set your target zones? Say, you are aiming to run at 145bpm would you have a zone of 140-150 outside of which you wouldn't go and end up with an average of 145 or do you aim to stick to 145 all the way through (i.e no 'zone' at all)?

Surely you must experience even minor fluctuations in HR which would make sticking to exactly 145 throughout impossible?

Or do you have a narrower zone of say 143-148 to allow for such fluctuations?

Sorry for waffling - was just intriguing me how you structured your HR runs.

16/09/2003 at 18:05
BR, (and also in answer to e-mail - sorry!)
The base for a base that I was outlining for Minkin, would be covered by you in your "recovery" period. That should all be slow and easy.
The "proper" base would be pretty much as you say. Those doubles you've convinced me on! I'd also try a third "faster" day on the Saturday. Just build them in gradually...
Also I'd extend the recovery period to a MINIMUM of 4 weeks - just to play safe. If you are building up to 1hr a day PLUS doubles of 20min each morning you could easily spread the build up over 6 weeks - that is a lot of miles at your pace. I think your body would tahnk you for the slower miles for an extended period in the long run. Plenty of time...
If you build all three "faster" runs up to LT for a PORTION of the run, you'll have ample speed for a base. You may also want to do soem alactic speed and drills during the slower runs. So certainly not ALL slow and easy.
You could build up to 1.5hrs on easier days and 1hr (inc build up) on faster days. The main progression over time would be long runs - try alternating on a five weeks cycle. (Up to) 3hrs slow; (up to) 2hrs building up to a few miles at marathon pace at the end; repeat these two; 5th week recovery week (less all week) 1.5 - 2hr (max) slow.
What do you think?

I aim to NEVER go over 145 - full stop. Occasionally I misjudge and regualrly hit 146 (that's when the alarm goes off), often hit 147 and have on occasion hit 148. Nevr more. My averages are very low as allow a fair time to build up to the "higher" HRs. So on a 40min run I would still be below 135 at 20min say.
I am shooting for a build up of speed from a slow w/u and then a constant effort so that the max HR at the end is 145.
16/09/2003 at 19:02
Pantman, I was thinking of 40 mins in the morning and an hour to 90 mins in the evening!

Is 3hrs really necessary for a Sunday run? I don't intend being on my feet much over 2:40 in April!

Will try to last out 4 weeks before starting. As you can gather I'm champing at the bit already!
16/09/2003 at 19:39
I think 3hr runs are helpful, if only 2 out of 5 weeks... I plan to do them, but obviously that's easy to say as I'm not there yet...

And those early weeks are actually DOING something... don't feel that they are simply wasting time - they acheive a lot!
16/09/2003 at 19:43
Just read all the Hadd stuff. I don't have a scientific brain but I managed to get the tube of toothpaste analogy.

By that method there'd be nothing over 145 bpm until that was cracked then move on to 150 bpm. (or have I read that wrong).

Are we just talking variations on the same theme here? It is just like speedwork - people saying x session is great because it worked for y runner whilst another coach recommends something different?

If the general principle is slowish running I can get my head round that.

At what point does a run become anaerobic so I can avoid that as much as possible?

Sorry to bang on but I find this fascinating.
16/09/2003 at 19:54
Barnsley - you'll need a 20 minute warm up if you are taking this marathon thing seriously !
16/09/2003 at 20:00
popsider - I'm serious. The happy easy jogger of Woollaton Park is not going to become the pathetic hobbler of the City Ground again! :)
16/09/2003 at 21:59
BR – I think your (and Pantman’s) training ideas are pretty close to mine. A few thoughts for you:
I agree that your morning run should be at least 30 mins, but very slow. They should be to aid recovery from the night before and set yourself up for the evening session. Currently my morning jogs are at only 50% WHR, I see no reason to increase the effort as I get fitter.

I agree with Pantman regarding the long runs. Your goal is to RACE a marathon, which means you should be capable of running the distance (slowly) at any time. I know this is not widely agreed upon, but something I strongly believe in.

If you are running for 1½ to 2½ hours per day, you’ll soon know if you are going anaerobic! There are various tests you can do to find the ‘right’ pace, but if you can continue training day after day without deteriorating then you are probably OK.

One thing I’ve noticed missing from your training plan is races. I can’t imagine you going months at a time without them! I think running the odd race (but not easing up the training) will not do too much harm. It is OK for the elite to target just one or two races a year, but us mere mortals need the odd race here and there to keep our motivation up.
As I have said before, your peak is probably (or should be) a few years away yet. So why put all your eggs in one basket this year to run a time that you’ll be able to beat easily in a couple of years time?

16/09/2003 at 22:13
Cheers TT


24th Sept - club track 5k
28th Sept - Barnsley 5k
5th Oct - Maltby 10
12th Oct - x-country
26th Oct - Holmfirth 15
early Nov - x-country
30th Nov - Leeds Abbey Dash 10k
7th Dec - x- country
26th Dec - Ward Green 6

That would make 41 races for the year, so I don't think I'll miss out there:)

Glad you agree on the 30 mins morning runs. To me a 20 min run is what I do when tapering just to loosen up and stretch.

Yes, RACING a marathon. The poor soul you saw on Sunday laying flat out by our car had walked in from mile 22 to finish in 3:35! He had been in an ambulance on a drip for a while.

Tonight he flew round the club run leaving everyone for dead apparently.

50% is low - but it seems to be working for you!

BTW, shouldn't you update your picture? You look like a frightening bouncer up there, not the toned and fit bloke I didn't recognise Sunday!
16/09/2003 at 22:22
Frightening bouncer look may dissuade people from disagreeing with my opinions on the forums though!

Oops - late for bed. Got an exciting 9 miler planned for the morning ;o)
16/09/2003 at 23:38
TT!! I was trying to get him to race LESS...

Just bear in mind, BR, that your base won't make you faster immediately for certian - it may well do, but you have some good PBs already. Just make sure if you race that you allow for the stage of your training when considering the performance.
16/09/2003 at 23:42
And BR don't think of the toothpaste being a linear analogy (goes higher beat by beat), but as one of stages. The easier running will allow for aerobic adaptation and improved efficiency and increase in mileage. Then build up to allow you to gradully phase in to the work of LT improvement.

Then anaerobic work can be done at the end as you can get it up to maximum in less than a month while aerobic base takes a long time to go and will hold while you do the harder stuff.
17/09/2003 at 11:33
Having read all of this, I still have one question. How do you know if you're going anaerobic, and if the aim is to raise the LT threshold so that you're running aerobically at a pace which used to force you to run anaerobically, how do you know where the threshold is? I assume it varies from runner to runner. I'm sure there was something about this in Hadd which involved some kind of test?
17/09/2003 at 11:41
I was wondering if you use a graph plotted from Hadd's 2400m-at-specific-HR tests to work out your LT level?

Alternatively going on past performances - for instance in 2002 my FLM heartrate was in the low 160s for the first half and crept up to the mid/high 160s in the second half on average (176 in the last mile!). In this years FLM the average had gone up to the mid 170s, however i hit the wall badly unlike 2002 and of course the heat didn't help.

Therefore can i assume my LT moved between 2002 and this year & that it is possibly in the high 160s?
17/09/2003 at 11:43
creepy! i hadn't seen your post minkin.

Great minds...
17/09/2003 at 11:57
Yes, a bit spooky that Chaos!!

It's a good question though. Hadd recommends the 2400m-at-specific-HR tests, but others (eg Phil Maffetone and Mark Allen) recommend slightly different tests.

Let's see what our guru Pantman says ...
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