Base Training

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19/09/2003 at 15:21
I agree with you TT. I don't think I'll convince our coach but will just have to live with that.

Pies and Guiness? Mmmmm... am going to Ireland in a few weeks, I'll be sure to stock up.
19/09/2003 at 17:20
Chaos, couldn't you drop down a group so you are running at an easier pace?

Over the last couple of weeks our `fast' group has got so big that I can run quite comfortably well within max aerobic HR.

Last night we ended up returning in pairs as different people wound it up at different points. I plodded on at same rate with our 32 min 10k star who seems to like his easy runs.
19/09/2003 at 17:26
"Our 32 min 10k star who seems to like his easy runs".....more proof of the value of steady mileage ?
19/09/2003 at 17:38
Definitely TT. He hardly ever pushes it on club nights, runs plenty of runs with his girlfriend but when he goes he really goes!
20/09/2003 at 01:15
Folks, is it just me, or has this thread been really good..? And is MK the link man or what!?!

RW Forum has always been fun and friendly, but it has been getting very informative of late too... Lots of good reading!

Question for TT - do you really think you can get leg speed back very quickly. A lot of teh 2nd Generation Lydiardites (Kellogg, Hadd, et al) are very into regular alactic speed work - not necessary? I read somewhere that Lydiards boys did a fair bit too, but never in his books...
20/09/2003 at 08:50
PM - I suppose it depends on what you mean by 'leg speed'. If I was aiming for 800s and 1500s early in the summer, then I probably would do some alactic work through the winter.

For marathon training, speed-work this side of Xmas will be a few 10k 'races' (trying to run fast/relaxed). My only track-work before the marathon will be longer timetrials.

After the FLM, I may well try to have a track season. I suppose we'll have to wait until then to see how quickly the 'leg speed' returns.
20/09/2003 at 11:02
Great thread - very informative.

I've always been convinced by the theory of base training, but always been too impatient to put it into practise.

After reading all this I thought "Right! - get out the old Polar hrm and force myself to an 8-miler really slowly".

220 minus age (50) isn't accurate for me - reckon my max is nearer 180, and resting hr is about 40. So tried to run with hr below 150.

It was hellish. By 3 miles my lower back ached and my backside muscles cramped from the sheer effort of shuffling along with my brakes permanently on. I know I'm a plump middle aged lady, but I felt embarrassed to be seen going at that pace in public. It was just so joyless - how do people suffer this for all those miles? I was losing the will to live by the 5 mile point, and had to do some sneaky little sprints between lampposts to cheer myself up. Oh dear. More practise needed at this slow running, I fear - cos I know that doing all my training runs too fast doesn't actually improve my endurance as much as the long slow runs.

20/09/2003 at 12:32
LynneW, I believe the formula is 180 minus age, plus 5 if you are a regular exercise. I am 48 and my maximum HR for base training is 137. I have been running at about 130 HR for most of my runs over the past few weeks with the ocasional HR over it, usually at the top of hills. I am beginning to think I am abnormal as I find running at an easy pace suits me and if I cared what people thought of a middle-aged slightly overweight person running I would never have started running in the first place. Best of luck with the rest of your base training.
20/09/2003 at 13:22
I really useful thread, have been ready as much as I can and following up the links. Have some questions though...
20/09/2003 at 13:32
I fit in with Hadd's stereotype of a runner whose performance drops below what is expected the longer the race, although i'm only a 1:52 HM runner. Target is sub 1:45 and sub 4 FLM. Am interested in this stuff as it seems to hold some interesting theories. So, questions...

Is there one source of info other than Pantman ie a book or website?

According to Hadd 80+ mpw is recommended, could I get by on 40/50?

I assume that weekly club speed sessions are out

What should the length of base building be? Maffetone say 12 weeks, Hadd 20. Should I start now for Spring marathon?

20/09/2003 at 13:38
I'm sticking with both of them - 12 weeks for Maff and 20 for Hadd - that's 32 weeks!

21/09/2003 at 07:10
Having done the Hadd test yesterday I found my pace ranged from 7:39 m/m @140 bpm to 5:49 @ 180 bpm.

Hadd's mate averaged 7:56 @ 140 bpm and 5:40 @180.

Why would his range of paces be greater than mine? What does it signify?

If anyone fancies doing the test it takes very little out of you as you're only running at any effort for the last 2 sets.

There's a mental boredom of plodding around a track at the beginning when tracks were built to be bombed around!
21/09/2003 at 08:48
I would but i'd need a track to go on
21/09/2003 at 15:04
Did you allow your HR to rise gradually each section or did you push it up na dthen try and hold it? The latter would make you faster especially over the easier HRs - that would explain it.
21/09/2003 at 15:10
Yes gradually - 200-300m! I see that.
21/09/2003 at 19:13
Fantastic reading this has been, would also like to ask a question, and sorry if have been asked already but would like to know:

Would love to give this base building a serious go but would like to know if you could just run to your certain HR for any length of time, have done a 18 and 20 miler in last few days but very easy pace, is this advisable or should they be shorter runs, or does it depend on the individuals time and commitments?

Also like BR I have races ( my aim for this year was to race one race each month ) and having sept,oct,nov and dec remaining to race, was wondering if this would really interfere with the base building prog.

Keep the info coming guys, super thread;-)
21/09/2003 at 19:34
Been lurking on this thread for a while, having just bought an hrm.

Just re-read the Maffetone article that Minkin linked to a couple of pages earlier. In his section about the 180 formula, these sentences suddenly caught my eye:

"One significant benefit of applying the 180 Formula to your training is the chemical response by the body: production of free radicals is minimal compared to running at heart rates even a little higher. These chemicals can contribute to degenerative problems, inflammation, heart disease, and cancer, not to mention speeding the aging process."

I find this alarming. Surely he's not saying that training at higher levels of effort can increase the heart disease, cancer etc risk? I don't get it. Someone reassure me, please.
21/09/2003 at 19:34
Hi Speedie

As I understand it you run as far as you can take. Two Ton is running marathon's for training runs!

What you may need to take into account is heart rate drift towards the end of a long run and not crank it up to the top of your range early on.

As for races, I have my doubts, but one per fortnight or month should not do too much damage. It's not like you're punishing your body 3 times per week like we do with speedwork.

If I was focussed on one goal only then I might not race but like most runners I like the spice of regular competition.
21/09/2003 at 19:36
Apologies for the disgraceful apostrophe in the second line. It is a typing error, not a lapse in grammar.
21/09/2003 at 20:05
I've just re-read all the postings on here.

What I want to know is why, after running for 4 years, I've only heard of this method since Pantman and Two Ton joined the forum?

I've been taking RW for most of that time, read plenty of useful articles, many of them several times over in different issues, but nothing on base building.

Even in the more `serious' British Runner, we get Horwill telling us to train less, albeit with some scientific theory and successful stories behind it. But no base building advice.

Having heard of base building and talking to more experienced runners at our club, they confirm that Oct, Nov, Dec in each year would involve little or no racing and hard training but getting in the miles in preparation for a spring marathon.

Thanks to Pantman and others for all the info. If RW wanted to improve their website they'd stick a link onto this thread and commission an article to counteract the rubbish of `Running less makes you faster'.

I'll go for a lie down now:)
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