Base Training

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25/11/2009 at 17:17
No, I've not done a Hadd test - do you have a link handy?  And as to hours running...I'm getting better! 
25/11/2009 at 17:32
I'm no good at links but if you type 'Hadd article' into google, you should find it pretty much at the top of the page, tricoachjill or something has a copy.  It's a long article but well worth reading.
28/11/2009 at 14:11
Gone a bit quiet on here.  Just got back from a 10km run.  Don't know if anyone else has noticed this, but my splits got progressively faster today. My hr was pretty even during the middle 6k, 149 for the first 2 and then148 for the next 4, but i ran each 2k split 30 secs faster than the last.  Any theories?  Shouldn't they slow down a bit, or at best stay the same?  Not complaining, obviously, but seems a bit weird.
30/11/2009 at 18:23
Hi basetrainer I think the fitter you get your HR will become more stable and you will have to speed up to keep the heartrate up thats my theory any way Im no expert stick with the HR it really works slowing down. Im now 5wks in and now starting to see the benifits off slowing down and increasing my mileage. I ran a 10k on saturday and got a PB 50 mins not bad considering Ive been running 11+ min miles these last 5 weeks so Im a happy bunny.
01/12/2009 at 21:17

Congrats on the PB, I bet you're chuffed about that.  I'm starting to notice some improvements so I'm happy to be patient.  It helps that I only started running to get into shape and therefore don't really have any preconceived notions of what I should be doing. I'm still going slower than everyone else out there, but as i've managed to knock ten mins off my ten km loop in three weeks, i'm pretty happy. 

Anyone got any thoughts on stiff knees?  Not really a big problem but I do sometimes feel like my knees get stiffer towards the end of a run, like they need to be stretched out, but not sure if there are any knee stretches.  Maybe i've just inherited my mom's dodgy knees and at some point they'll say 'that's enough'.

02/12/2009 at 08:27
Just surfing the web and I came across a better description of my knee thing.  Someone described it as 'movie theatre' syndrome or something.  You know that feeling you get in your knees when you spend too long sitting in one position with your knees bent.  Anyone else suffer from this, now and again?  Now that I think about it as bent knee syndrome, I'm thinking it's probably just one of those things you can't do anyting about. 
02/12/2009 at 09:15
Don't know much about knees I'm afraid - at the moment, I probably don't run far enough or hard enough to injure myself and am hoping I can deep it that way.  I posted on this thread about 6wks / 2 months ago when I started to 'base train' and have been plodding on ever since.  I am noticing a very slight upward movement of my speed for a given HR range (I think I need to re examine my max HR, but maybe next week!).  What I have picked up in the posts since mine (and I have read them all) is that I'm probably not running long enough or frequently enough to reap the benefits fully.  I am currently managing to get out 3 or 4 times a week and get in 2 30-40 minute runs and 2 longer runs (up to 90 mins but at least an hour).  However, the benefits I'm seeing are mainly around being able to run for longer - up until I started this, I'd never run for any more than an hour and now I feel like I can plod away for ever (well almost - I have managed 2 and 3/4 hours for the Seagrave Wolds Challenge).  So, I shall carry on shunning speed work etc until the new year and am hoping to have built up some kind of base to 'spring' into action and get my first HM under my belt in March.
03/12/2009 at 08:45

Congrats on your SWC, I've never managed more than 90mins on my feet so i think it'll be a while before i manage anything like that. I agree that base training certainly makes cranking out the miles easier.  I also think you're right about improvements coming quicker the more hours you can put in.  I think you can certainly see decent results from 5 hrs a week, and i'm sure you can get away with less, but I think at the end of the day, the more you put in the more you get out.

 It's quite a novelty coming from a run and not having to spend the next half an hour trying to control your breathing.  If i'd known that was possible I might have taken up running years ago.  The best thing about being a newbie is that improvements come so quickly.  Although i'm still travelling at snail pace i have managed to improve my pace from 9min k's to 8min k's in 3 weeks.  I've tried to keep my hr at 150 or less for all my runs (max 200) except for two work sessions done at 165 (and the last 3k of one run where i went mad).  It's more of a shuffle than a run, but who cares.

Anyway, keep on keeping on, I'm sure your aerobic base will continue to improve, and your hm will be a breeze

16/12/2009 at 18:45

Great to see this thread resurrected, those of you that have read some or all of the thread will know that I have been doing Hadd training on and off for a few years now.   Unfortunately I run marathons too often to get a long enough spell on base training to achieve the full effects but I started again in the summer and running to 70%MHR I managed to get my mileage up nicely without suffering any over training or injuries.   My peak mileage week in August was 100 miles, then back at work the following week I ran 80mpw and the week after 75mpw (including 2 marathons in 3 days).   The following weekend I knocked 10 minutes off my marathon PB without a taper and it wasn't a flat or fast course(Wolverhampton) and all the proof I need that Hadd training works.    A few marathons after that then swine flu I'm now building up my training again.

For those of you starting out the basics are read the Hadd stuff, and keep it to hand as it's a lot to take in on one hit.

Do a MHR test or sprint like hell for the finish line in a race.   the formula to calculate MHR doesn't work for a lot of folk

Build up your mileage to one hour a day (I usually only run 6 days a week) starting out at 70-75% MHR and work towards getting that down to 70% does get easier, the first couple of weeks can be very frustrating but perservere.

Do a Hadd test every 6 weeks or so, how you perform at the lower heart rates is a really good performance monitor

Once you can run 10 miles with no cardiac drift at 70% MHR, ie. pace and HR remain constant introduce 2 work sessions a week at ILTHR pace (see last page of Hadd bumpf) until you can do 10 miles at that HR with no cardiac drift then your works sessions move up to the next HR range.

this really is a great way to train and you will get great results

Edited: 16/12/2009 at 18:46
16/12/2009 at 19:14

when you say no cardiac drift do you mean maintain the same pace and have no cardiac drift or just alter your pace accordingly when you see a difference?

I assume you mean the former...

17/12/2009 at 07:23
Hi tommy - no cardiac drift = same pace at same HR.   If you have to slow your pace to stick to HR as your run progresses then that is cardiac drift.   I'm up to about 8 miles now before HR starts to creep up and I have to slow down, another couple of weeks and I'll be able to start my work sessions
17/12/2009 at 08:21

I used to be very sceptical about this type of training but after only 6 weeks of trying it I’m now completely convinced. I ran a disappointing time in Dublin marathon after using a FIRST programme so I decided to give base training a try. I now run 6 times a week with 5 of running about 70% of my Maximum HR which is 140. I also run one tempo run a week at just below 10k pace. I'll be adding an interval session with 16 weeks to go unitl my next marathon.

I hated the first few weeks of base training as I had to run so slow but my times have now come down to a reasonable speed. Here are the pace and average HR I’ve run on my weekend long runs for the last 6 weeks –

Pace 9:41 HR 138

Pace 9:21 HR 138

Pace 8:56 HR 137

Pace 9:04 HR 141

Pace 8:50 HR 142

Pace 8:43 HR 137  

My average HR for the Dublin marathon was 157 and my pace was 8:35 and finished in 3h 48 minutes. I was on target for 3h 30 until I hit the wall at around 20 miles.

17/12/2009 at 13:04

Badbark - that's great progress on your long runs.   What sort of distance are you up to now for the long runs?

You should find that your next marathon will be a lot more comfortable to run than Dublin.....there are no walls to hit with base training.

17/12/2009 at 13:50

Shades, all the long runs have been between 10-13 miles with a 14 miler planned this weekend.I'll post my results in another few months to see if I've continued to improve.

I hope to break 3h 30 with my next marathon in May without hitting the wall!

17/12/2009 at 17:13

Badbark - I think you'll get that 3.30 time without any walls next time.   Incidentally I ran my marathon PB at 88%MHR without hitting the wall.  I think I just peaked on the right day.  but I'm sure I can improve on my PB and that's what I hope to do in 2010.

BT rocks

17/12/2009 at 17:27
Hello everuone

Shades - Good to see you posting here. Didn't realise how much mileage you ran well done.

Last few weeks running has been a bit hit and miss but this is usually our busy time at work now things should begin to settle down and i can get back to some sort of proper training looking forward to this
17/12/2009 at 17:52
Hi - I am 62 years old and started running aged 55 yrs after giving up smoking heavily all my adult life and doing no worthwhile exercise.

I made fast improvement getting down to 39.47 for 10k and 3.13 for a marathon 3 years ago but for a while have plateaued.

In addition my last 3 london marathons have been a lot slower at 3.25, 3.29 and 3.28 mainly down to niggles in race that troubled me and in my long runs, mainly hamstring being tight and stiff.

I have decided to follow the Hadd coaching thread to get a good base for London 2010 as my previous training may have been causing niggles - and I am now into my 5th week.

My max hr is 178 and my easy runs are about 130 HR (about 8.03 to 8.18 pace depending on terrain and wind etc.
So far my longest run is about 16 miles and the LSR is feeling much easier.

I am doing 5 runs a week at 125 to 135 HR and 2 runs a week at 140 to 145 HR and this helps to keep my legs stretched out.
My hamstring problem is not as bad now (only done 2 xctry races and no speedwork in this period)

Not noticed any significant improvements in pace at the lower HR's but feel this will come in due course.


The runs of say 60mins to 2hrs at low HR's as well as making the slow twitch fibres stronger also make you more efficient at using fat for fuel.
Is it better to take no liquids and no gels with you so that any glycogen requirements have to come from fat stores or should you take liquids and/or gels with you??

17/12/2009 at 17:55

Hi Pammie - good to *see* you again too,and pleased to know that you're still a Hadd disciple.

I've found that for me to achieve PB's Hadd training and high mileage is the only way that works for me, am not up to that level of mileage again (yet), it's taken me 5 weeks after the swine flu to get my RHR back to normal.   I have 10 days off over Xmas so hope to get the mileage up to 100mpw then as I have plenty of time to run and rest

18/12/2009 at 08:48

Shades - Have to agree with you i tend to race better when doing more miles though not as much as 100mpw best last year 50mpw (best 66 miles in one week)

Good luck with the increase again hope you are fully recovered now.
I had thought of 100mpw in the past but thats all i have thought of it - mainly due to the amount of time i would be running.

Can i ask you (if i'm not being too nosey) what were you doing each day to run that mileage?
I certainly want to get back up to the 50-60 mpw maybe push 70 if i can. Maybe 100 is achieveable one day
18/12/2009 at 13:06

Pammie - I'll dig out my training diary tonight and let you know the daily mileage for my peak weeks.   I've never managed a 100mpw whilst working (I work full time), I'm hoping to achieve it in 2010, we'll see

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