Focused Training - RW [Forum]

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16/03/2005 at 11:38
Good grief you are all skinny whippets.

I'd have to go back to this time last year for a BMI/pace conparison as my gammy knee is stopping me from doing anything at the moment

BMI of around 27.7 resulted in 1.30HM run at just over 70% WHR

I hope that means I can get a lot quicker again
16/03/2005 at 18:16
5'9" and 10st 3lbs, slim of build and gaunt of feature
16/03/2005 at 21:23
Tom - I envy you!! But I imagine that's why you posted... ;-)

Micksta - weight loss going well currently - still going well for Paddock Wood?? And are we racing at Folkestone first??

Big Tim - Folkestone is your home turf - will you be there? BR is staying and racing too.
16/03/2005 at 21:37
Well, I'll be having a hard training run after the stress of travelling, sleeping in a strange bed plus all the psychological warfare tricks PM is probably planning (dripping taps, heavy metal music etc)!
16/03/2005 at 21:42
You sound like Big Tim, BR! ;-)
Too many excuses post-race and you'll be sounding like Micksta!!! :-D
17/03/2005 at 11:02
PANTMAN:

Cool glad your weight loss is going to plan, it will make a big difference especially in longer races and warmer weather.

As for racing, mate im in a whole load of trouble with my running, so racing you is out of the question! I will be down Folkestone, but as to how I run, god knows at the moment!

Im canning this season already, so probably will not do Paddock Wood, and take a long break and get tests and things done, hopefully I can get back to some shape for the summer mind! :)

17/03/2005 at 11:59
Why so, Micksta? Your sessions seem to be going well. What troubles you?
17/03/2005 at 12:07
Yes BR, the training sessions are very possitve, in fact all signs say im pretty much quicker than at this point last year.

But every race I do, I seem to keep having these `loss of strength and dizzy type spells and lose all my running form!

So after what happened at Hastings, alarm bells have now sounded,something is physically wrong with me and until this get identified and cured, then racing at any distance is out of the question! I shall can any championships im in and use any further races to try and get to the route of the problem, only when I feel I can do myself justice will I enter anything big-time! No point limping around like im currently doing, im not doing either myself justice or my new club any favours. Thats just the way things are going to be now.
17/03/2005 at 14:23
Micksta, do you think that there's anything you could have done which would correlate with the experience you had at Hastings?

Have you changed your diet recently? Or have you been doing too much of one type of training?

Perhaps you have taken too much out of your body and could do with a month off from exercise completely to allow your body to recover? Especially since you saw Hastings through to the bitter end.

Have you discussed it with your coach? Has he given you any ideas?
17/03/2005 at 15:02
Micksta, I'm sorry that you're having a difficult time of things at the moment, however to think of canning the season, even before its under way is probably over reacting.

Can I make a couple of observations, based on the tone of your daily training threads - obviously I've never met you, so I may be getting hold of the wrong end of the stick.

Your training reports are nearly always upbeat, your track sessions are usually fast and ferocious and your steady morning runs are usually described as "comfy" followed by "picked up the pace". This suggests one of two things - either you are training too hard, and your not getting the relation right between the hard days and the genuinely slow days. Or you are suffering from the gap between training expectation and racing realisation. Or a combination of both.

I've been through similar experiences in my running careers. Back when I was at University (B'ham) I used to train with a group of very talented runners, several who went on to run internationally. I trained ferociously, fighting to hang on to these guys and usually tailing off in the last quarter of the session. I was running my b*llocks off and they were only cruising. If I had a good day sometimes I could stay with them, and that gave me satisfaction. That satisfaction was of course misplaced as when it came to racing I was just too tired to run well. I also thought that given my prodigious training efforts I deserved to race faster. Problem was I just couldn't see the connection, and wasn't until a few years later that in retrospect I saw it, having become a little older and wiser.

17/03/2005 at 15:03
However being older and wiser doesn't always work. I started back to running again in August 2002, and by December 2002 had run 10k in 39mins, and April 2003 10M in 64mins, and thought that I was about to launch into a spectacular MV55 career. By the end of June I was struggling to break 40mins for 10k and 66mins for 10M. What I had done was to abandon my steady running/one speedwork session a week regime for one which was based on about 50 miles a week of relatively fast running everyday together with a tempo run and and interval session. Within two or three weeks my running developed a "boom and bust" charactor. I never knew from day to day how the session would go, if it wasn't going well I'd still try to run it fast rather than backing off. Gradually the "bust" sessions and races became more predominant and the downward cycle started. By the end of July 2003 I was in the same state, that I think you are now. At the time I was too close to the problem and couldn't see the cause - quite simply not enough structure within the weekly cycle, the obvious idea that hard days need to be balanced with easier recovery days. Because of my rapid improvement I had blurred the gap between "training expectation and racing realism" refered to earlier.

What I did was to take a week off, but said to myself that if I wanted to go for a run I should, but that it wouldn't be longer than 5 miles, and initially I wouldn't go for more than three consecutive days without a rest. I started this at the beginning of August 2003. By the end of August I introduced a fartlek session and a tempo run of 3-4 miles, and only did these runs if I felt like it. Gradually through Sept and Oct these sessions togther with the long run crept up - under there own imptetus, rather than by me forcing it. At the end of October I ran a HM clocking 82ms passing 5m in 31 mins and 10M in62mins. At the time I didn't have a clue where it came from. In retrospect I think that the potential to run that fast was already there in August, it just needed a little gentle nurturing back onto the straight and narrow.

Looking back over this, I’ve rambled on, and I'm not even sure its of any benefit to you. One thing I do suspect however, is that your problem is nowhere near as desperate as you think it is, and that with a bit of " gentle nurturing back onto the straight and narrow", you'll be running as quickly as your training equips you to, long before the end of the season.
17/03/2005 at 15:57
Tom. - spot on.

Micksta - I know you love your training group and are committed to them, but they are killing you. And as for your two coaches, if they cannot see that you are overtrained and run down then they are either crap coaches or not sufficiently involved with you.

A bit of a rest (as Tom says) followed by some easy aerobic running is the solution - NO SPEEDWORK. Build up the miles for a month or so and then SLOWLY work on the intensity.
Drive round and run with me (daily if you like) and I'll make sure you go slow. I'll help you in whatever way I can.

You're a great guy, motivated and full of enthusiasm, and it kills me to see you going backwards (even if it means I can beat you!) - I get to pleasure in saying it, but I did tell you so - long ago before the slump - that this would happen.

It's your call, but I genuinely wish you all the best whatever you do.
17/03/2005 at 16:09
Second Tom's view, put in simple grass root athletics wisdom - Training is training and racing is racing :)

Maybe you get too carried away with your track sessions. Leave the stop watch at home and don't track the times for the next few weeks. As the season is still long, I would rather put in a proper tempo run and skip the two track sessions. Once you feel strong in the tempo run (45 mins), a half marathon should feel easy and should give you enough confidence for the race situation. There is nothing wrong with track sessions, but if done rather a proper set and not half the set with increased rest (only my view).
17/03/2005 at 16:10
What Tom and PM say.

I was in your position 18 months ago. Training harder and harder for more erratic results. I would beat guys I'd never beaten one race then suck for 5 more races. So I trained harder and sucked more.

Then I cut out the speedwork put my mileage base down then gradually reintroduced the faster stuff.

My take is that the reason you feel so bad in races is that you are overtrained and setting off too quickly for what your training will allow. You mention a first mile of 5:27 at Hastings. That's 71 min HM pace! So you've burned out by 10 miles and feel sick and woozy.

Hope you get things back on track soon.
17/03/2005 at 16:51
Micksta, I think you'd agree that there is a general unanimity of view here from PM, URR, BR and myself here. What we are all agreed on is that you must get the balance right between the steady aerobic running, the faster stuff and the recovery running. Its this balance that is important and is specific to the individual, being determined by his physical make up and his racing ambitions.I think that BR and PM would prefer that you do very little speedwork, whereas URR and myself recognise that it is part of your training that you enjoy, and would be benefical to racing over your shorter distances. I think incuding a reasonable amount of speedwork in your training mix is ok - but with the following provisions.

Your must take real rest/recovery days. Simply doing an aerobic type run doesn't fit the bill, its got to be a recovery run to enable you to tackle the next hard session.

Yourmorning runs need to be run easier. They should unfold according to how you feel, you shouldn't be pushing these or seeking specific aerobic gains from them.

You shouldn't be doing lactic buffereing sessions, there are of little relevance for distances of 10k and above.You may recall, I queried the point of your 10x300m session. Great if you want to run 1500m but just too exhausting to fit into a balanced 10k+ schedule
17/03/2005 at 16:54
Everything in moderation.

(Says he, planning on getting leathered on Guinness tonight.)
17/03/2005 at 16:55
ceal just nipping in here to tell Tom that she has just sent him an e-mail, he may be interested in, on chip timing/gun finish/rankings.
17/03/2005 at 19:41
Tom. - I am fine with Micksta doing speedwork, but he is chronically overtrained and needs a total break first. That was my point.
Agree with the lactate buffering reps - his coach is apparently a former International MD runner - this to my mind is part of the problem...
17/03/2005 at 21:22
Pantman don't you think that the use of the word "chronically " is a little unconsidered. If it is, and you are overstating your "diagnosis, you may well also be in danger of overstating the remedy.


17/03/2005 at 21:27
Further to my previous post, it would appear that our responses to Micksta's problems are based on own responses to similar problems as they effected us. The appropriate solution is of course down to him, based on his own response to his current situation.

We do rather sound like a pair of consultants arguing over the operating table!

Get well soon, Micksta!
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