Genetic Limitations

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10/01/2007 at 11:47
"therefore evolutionarily high oxygen carrying capacity"

The word 'therefore' is not justified, it doesn't NECESSARILY follow.


"Some body shapes are faster than others at running (tall, long legs...)"

I do think certain extremes of body size and build will adversely affect running potential, but exactly what body type is best is far from clear.

Was the "tall, long legs" phrase written when kenyans were winning everything? (Tergat and Ngugi spring to mind in particular) What about now where many top runners tend to be quite short (e.g. Geb, Bekele - Bekele is even quite chunky compared to many).

There has just been too much diversity in the top runners over the years to really confidently say one body type is best for running (short, tall, slender, more powerful).

just remember it was "IIRC from GCSE Biology." Its going to be rather simplified at GCSE level.


I don't think the case for that is very clear at all. Top men's distance runners have tended to be short in recent years.
10/01/2007 at 11:53
Like the 'tall' stuff... and observe as Alex does that the mass that needs moving must be low.

Mrs I wasn't too pleased when I pointed out Tirunesh Dibaba was exactly the same height (well, lack of it rather) and weight as she was.
10/01/2007 at 12:04
So the reason why some of those fast African lasses are the same height as I am and weigh around 10kg less really is to do with me having "heavy bones"!

Alex's figures are the sort of information I'm looking for, but this has turned into an interesting discussion generally.
SFC
10/01/2007 at 12:16
This thread has been a stonking good read!

If a couple of anoraks can come up with an algorithm on all the various ways to tie a necktie then surely we must be able to cobble something together....

Assuming we keep the environmental reference conditions constant - altitude, humidity, temperature etc ...

Then....Variables
Height
Weight
BMI
Bone density
Blood chemistry
Nutrition
Hydration
DNA
cell thermodynamics

....... add to the list and when we reach 50 we can hand it over to Carol Vooderman or the guy who compiles the Sudoku puzzles

Personally I think the biggest variable is between the ears. Think of all the great tallents who have self destructed, not just in sport...

Ho hum... brain hurts now....

Kryten    pirate
10/01/2007 at 12:31
It’s not an advantage to be tall and have long legs. If it were than elite marathon runners would all look like basket ball players.

I’m 6’4" and always get the “it’s easy for you, you have long legs” comments from non-runners. :-)

In the Lore of Running he shows that there is an ideal height for distance runners. (The average height of winning marathon runners has not changed through the years despite the fact that the average height of the population as a whole has increased.)

For men the ideal height is slightly shorter than the average man’s height. For women it is slightly taller than the average woman’s height.
10/01/2007 at 12:34
Unethical Experiment #2

Pick 10,000 people at random...

Put them on IDENTICAL diets and stick them on treadmills and zap them with cattle-prods if they start slacking.

Find out what is the SLOWEST mins/mile pace (say over 5 miles) that 95% of them can manage after say 1 year of forced training.

I think this was Vrap's original question that she wanted answered.

Maybe a TV reality show could take this up.

I'd watch it.
10/01/2007 at 13:01
what unethical about that? Sounds like a good idea...
10/01/2007 at 15:13
Re unethical experiment No2

LOL Lots!

I think it should be hosted by Noel Edmunds... Prod or No Prod....
10/01/2007 at 16:17
I wonder how this thread would read if it was in Ethiopia;
Something like this perhaps.

I love to run, I run to school, and run with my friends and when I come back I run with the 'athletes' One day I want to be like Haille. When he came to our school, he said we could all be great runners one day. I know I will be when I grow up!

Am I just a fantasist or does this ring true????
10/01/2007 at 16:32
Only for the privileged, TC. For most Ethiopian children, it might be "I run because if I walked I couldn't bring enough water to my family and we would die. Haile who?"
Duck Girl    pirate
10/01/2007 at 16:39
i wasn't being totally serious - quoting GCSEs should be some indication of that :)

I dunno about absolute potential, but in club running terms i think most of it will always be motivation & opportunity rather than talent.
I was the slowest kid in primary school for several years running, & i'm dyspraxic - which probably puts me well in the bottom 1% of the population.
Don't know where doing an IM puts me, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's top 1% of population.

So without actually getting to the Olympics, I don't think it's that important.
10/01/2007 at 16:47
Either way VRap, compare it to our teenagers.
'I don't wanna run, I can't be boverred. When is big bruvver on!!!'
10/01/2007 at 18:58
I'd also really like to see the unethical study done.

I think part of that is why I had such high hope for a marathon show that was on last year that was coaching a few obese people to run a marathon in 3 months (Sally Gunnell hosting) turned out to be a lame duck.

I think people need to be motivated. I think if the TV companies could put a million pounds up for grabs & have a competition where a handful of people have a year to train for an event (with proper coaching help & advice on diet etc) wee might see some real improvements.

It could kind of be a big brother thing but rather than the jobless dossers laying about in a tiney house they would be working towards improving their lifestyle, realising personal goals & perhaps being an inspiration to many
10/01/2007 at 22:05
Just read through this. Very interesting discussion. Can I chuck in some thoughts replying to the question as I think it was originally in Vrap's head ie how far can she get now ?
I reckon, in real terms the key factors are

1) optimal bodyweight. Most runners in Britain are well above this. Looking at the Kenyans etc in the flesh, at races, they are even skinnier than they seem on telly, though this applies to our elite women, for instance, too eg Paula, Liz & Hayley Yelling. Eat like a traditional Kenyan, or a Chinese etc person.

2) lifetime miles in you legs, and consistency of high mileage, injury free training. Paula had been training, I reckon 12 yrs+ at a very intense level before her marathon WR, and the same could be said of most of the elites. I, for instance, have been running for most of 23 years now, but I'd discount the first 4, and about 10 in the middle when I was cruising, and can really only say I've done 5 or 6 years, and not consecuctive of hard training.

c) age - relevant to the point made on the first page, discussing potential as a proportion of world records. I think the age-graded tables are useful pointers here, but I (age 53) don't think training needs to be limited by age nearly as much as some 'authorities' suggest.

d) motivation. Will you have the motivation, never mind other practical life isuues, to train as hard/optimal as poss for the next 10 years ? That has certainly been the main reason why I haven't done so; some years, or spells of years I do fine, then something comes along to distract me, and give running a slightly lower priority - not necessarily a bad thing, but clearly a limiting factor in reaching optimal potential.

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