HADD training plan

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09/01/2013 at 16:53

Hi Preston, It's my home town (ok, city) too...  I ran really well... eating up the last 5 miles but couldn't quite get under 4 hours - missing by less than a minute.

Respect for the early morning commitment!  I'd have to make a lot of changes before I could do that...  but you never know. 

09/01/2013 at 17:09

RW - Sure it was frustrating not to break 4hrs, but given the course and conditions that a good time, well run. Whereabouts in Preston do you live. I live in Walton-le-dale and do runs around avenham park and long runs usually take in Longton, Hutton and Penwortham, and did Guild Wheel 5 times in training for Marathon.

09/01/2013 at 19:49

Lotd of posts in the last few days.

Some quick points

Joe (Hadd guide) was a fast runner so a 2:30 training run was around his projected marathon time.

I have never  thought there was a need to do more than 20-22 miles as pre marathon prep. Maybe do an off-road trail race where you are likely running 25 miles in 4-5 hours (assuming 3-4 hours is your marathon time() but don't consider it mandatory to do more.

Respect for anyone who can run so early in the morning as Preston.

8 miles tonight on the dreaded milll - 80% AHR but very comfortable and I am sure I can get around Brass Monkey next week

 

09/01/2013 at 20:30

Assuming I expect to run a marathon in 4 hours my long slow runs would  then build up to 4 hours. Rather than Joes 2.30.

BeDe I might run Lake Vyrnwy, but only 3 weeks before Loch Ness!! is that enough rest time,not sure,

09/01/2013 at 20:55

I think that is too much  personally Roy. One of the problems with Hadd is that he only gave one example, which was Joe and everything is really extrapolated from that. I believe that a long run of ~3 hours is sufficient for a 4 hour marathon.

09/01/2013 at 20:56

Just been out for a 30 minute run (no time for longer   - and tried the ridiculousl slow pace.  Averaged 11:15.    Tried to measure my HR at the end... it was something like 130...  so I would perhaps should have gone a bit quicker.  Probably can't run again until the weekend (unless I do a "preston" !

09/01/2013 at 21:55

Another day and another 60 min run 2 more runs and that will be six weeks of Hadding , with that in mind I'm going to introduce some 80% work next week, probably  on a Wednesday, 

Mon, Fri 60 mins@75% 5m 

Tues, Thurs 90mins@75% (JS nights run too and from) 8m - 9m

Wed 70min@80% ??

Sun 120mins+@75% 12m+

I would imagine this would get me close to 50 miles a week, any feedback on the above would be appreciated

tonights run

http://s4.runnersworld.co.uk/members/images/696098/gallery/9jan.jpg?width=350

 11:52mm avgHR135(71%)

09/01/2013 at 22:57

Hi Mace and Chick,

Yeah, probably in my head. Thinking on it I've been reduced to running the same long course as the snow/ice limits my options. And only getting in 3-4 runs the past few weeks, I have been making most of them long ones. Might be a bit of the doldrums. Will change it up next week. Just curious as I've never had this problem before (I usually have to fight the urge to get an extra mile or two in when I'm at the end of a longer run).

Also, Keir, after reading a bit of the Let'sRun link, it made me wonder if I've been training too hard on most of my runs. I'm definitely usually in the 72-73% range on most of my slower stuff. For example, most easy runs I do at around 8:20 to 8:40 m/m while my 80% stuff is 7:15 to 7:35ish. Perhaps I need more than a minute space between these efforts? I just feel really comfy/relaxed at the 8:30 range. But haven't seen a ton of improvement at this effort so perhaps I'm squeezing a bit too far up on the tube. Will look over my records to see if this last statement holds up regarding pace at lower HR.

Edited: 09/01/2013 at 22:58
10/01/2013 at 11:39

Stewart C - I think I moved up to 80% just a little too soon - just check you can do 10 miles at 70% - 75% with no drop in pace at the end. Apologies if I may have missed one of your earlier posts showing that you can.

If good to go then I would gradually increase the 80% time rather than all out 70 mins. Say 30 mins in the middle of of a normal run and increase by 10 mins each week. Of course you could already be much more aerobically (and strength) fitter than me - it's just our paces are very similar:

Distance    Split time    Avg. HR    Time
1.00    10:38    132 (72%)    0:10:38
2.00    10:53    134 (73%)    0:21:32
3.00    10:56    134 (73%)    0:32:28
4.00    10:54    132 (72%)    0:43:23
5.00    10:54    133 (73%)    0:54:17
6.00    10:45    134 (73%)    1:05:03
6.31    3:22    133 (72%)    1:08:26

Edited: 10/01/2013 at 11:41
10/01/2013 at 11:58

thesasgeek,

My watch has said my HRMax has peaked at 204 at my 5k PB (24:56), so that would make my slower run HR at ~154bpm and the ILTHR at ~164bpm?

Are you sure this is your max (and not just a blip)? Have you seen at or around 200 before - seems a little high to me?  

As I’m currently just doing 5k runs (returning from injury), I would slowly build up to 10 miles at the slower run pace (154bpm). Is this correct?

70% = 142, 75% = 153. I would alternate between these in 60-70min runs to start with.  

Once I achieve the 10 miles at the slower run pace, I start to introduce the quicker ILTHR runs (at 164bpm) and do a maximum of 2 each week?

When you feel happy that you can hold 70-75% over 70-90mins without any significant drift. I would say give yourself at least 4 weeks of the lower intensity stuff first, before you even think about 80%.

Once these two are settled where I can maintain a steady pace to keep the ILTHR constant, I should increase the HR for both runs by 5pbm and continue in a loop?

Don't worry about this yet.  

As I’m hooked to turning up to the 5k parkruns each week, I’ll turn this into my faster pace runs once they’re added to my plan. I might also turn one every 5 or 6 weeks into a test to see how much I’ve improved.

Running is about enjoyment mainly. So, even though blasting a 5k per week is not good Hadd practice, do what you enjoy, I would say.

Hope this helps to get you started.

10/01/2013 at 17:17

thanks all for the various opinions on Long run duration, they were all helpfull. i myself in the past have done long runs up to 26miles and although i`ve always enjoyed them i`m not convinced that i`ve really benefitted from them so in when this years marathon comes up (probably Chester- Oct 6th) i`ll seriously consider doing long runs in time rather than distance and keeping them to maybe 2:30 - 2:45 at the most otherwise it may hinder the following day or two of training. thanks again.

 

no run today because ankle was a little sore so didn`t fancy makin a possible injury worse still. first rest day of the year so not bad really

10/01/2013 at 17:41

BD, thanks for the reply, most of my runs start below 70% and generally rise to 75%, the 12 miles on Sunday was steady for about 8 miles and rose to 76% and was a little higher going up hill. I'll introduce the 80% runs as suguested

10/01/2013 at 18:25

Johnny, if I run for 20-22 miles at 70% it will take me approx 3.45 to 4.00 hrs ( based on early last  years 22 mile times ) so bit of a catch 22 situation.

 When I ran the Snowdon mara last year I did not go over 16 miles in any training run for 2 months prior to that race, and felt strong all the way round

More to think about!

Stewert, I try and keep my HR at 70% for nearly all my runs, rather than let it drifft upwards, so when I am running the 80% runs I can really feel the drifference,

10/01/2013 at 20:21

Im under the impression that 21 is the most you should run.  This at your LSR pace is the same time as the full 26 at MP

10/01/2013 at 21:37
Interesting stuff on the long run. My initial marathon training long runs are what I call "time on your feet runs". I use these to build the long run up to 20 miles. My last 4-6 long runs would be paced. This content I think is more important than the distance. I have only gone to 24 in training and that was unintentional as I got lost.
My opinion is that 22 is long enough, and I would probably only do 1 of these normally 4 weeks out.
As I said I think the content (once the time on your feet runs are done) becomes more important, and done correctly should average about 40s to 60s slower than target pace.
The 2 types of paced long runs I do are:
1. Progressive
2. Hard/easys

The progressive long runs I like to split into 3 stages, typically
5mile easy
10mile moderate
5mile mp or near

The hard/easys tend to come out at a very similar overall pace and are typically
5x (2mile easy, 2mile mp) continuous. I normally make this one into 21miles by tagging on a mile cool-down at the end.
10/01/2013 at 23:23
I took the one mile group tonight almost running at 13mm 74% avgHR! Very frustrating
11/01/2013 at 01:09

Some great running and reading material going on here. Sorry I've been MIA since New Year, kinda lost my forum mojo for some reason and only posting sporadically. Rest assuered the HADDing has been going on full steam ahead though!!

11/01/2013 at 13:57

My first Marathon effort (85%) run today:

3m w/u 22mins 138bpm (73%) 7.24m/m - quite fast and comfortable warm up.

4m Mara effort 26min 33sec 161bpm (84%) 6.38m/m - felt hard for the first mile but the 1m split was 6.20m/m so I guess it was more a case of HR lag. Over the rest of run I had to slow a bit to keep HR within range. 

5m w/d 39min 146bpm (77%) 7.49m/m - felt comfortable and I am surprised to see that my HR was so high over this warm down.

I'm a bit worried that the final 5m warm down HR is much higher for a slower pace when compared to my w/up. The MP work must have taken quite a bit out of me.

11/01/2013 at 14:09

Well I survived Brian.'s 5M lunchtime handicap race on the canal ... just about!

Last Saturday I limped out to see if I was well enough to run ... 7 days later I've clocked up 61 miles and finished it with a 6:58/m 5M pain-fest on the tow-path. Pretty happy ... just need a LOT more weeks like this now. Brass Monkey HM will not be optimal but I think I'll get around okay.

Some numbers ... BM in 2011 ... 90:06, 6:53/m, avHR 157 bpm (max 164)
                              Today's 5M "race" ... 6:58/m, avHR 157 bpm (max 164)

HR data suggests that today (88% maxHR) was at HMP effort ... in which case I'm not looking forward to the last 8.1 miles.

Edited: 11/01/2013 at 14:25
11/01/2013 at 15:01

Keir, that's a good MP session. Don't worry about the warm-down. That does happen after a good effort - and moreso when you are tired. Maybe your warm-down was a little fast?

DrDan, happy that 8 runners turned up, and a couple of new faces. Don't worry about the numbers (I'm a right one to talk I know!) but the HR will be up, and the legs will be tired from your heavy training week. I'm in more or less the same boat, but am hoping the taper sorts us out!

Eindhoven Oct 12..... 80:45, 6:10/m  HRav 168 (max 178)

5M h/cap race........... 30:58, 6:12/m  HRav 167 (max 175)

All good quality miles in the bank.

Remember the surface, although not exactly off-road, is not as fast as tarmac. Anyway enough of the excuses.......

 

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