HADD training plan

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07/03/2013 at 00:11

I'm probably too early asking this. But I'm impatient!  I've not started Hadd yet (but I'm after a HR monitor for my birthday!)... but can you please give me an opinion.

This morning, I really thought through the physiology behind hadd.. and was commenting for someone else who was complaining that they'd plateaued... and thought I'd do an experiment tonight... running significanlty slower than normal.  And it was HARD !

A bit of background.... Just done a HM at 8:15 pace - on 15 miles per week. So, clearly aerobically challenged!    Most of my training for that HM was done at about 9.5min/mile... which I thought was slow enough but...

Tonight.. I had an hour available, I decided to slow it right down.. to 11.5 minutes per mile.... and it was tough on my legs.  Granted, it is only 3 days after that HM, but I wasn't stiff, and went for a little jaunt on Monday OK, and rested yesterday.

What do you reckon?  Is this the classic inability to maintain a run using only slow twitch muscle fibres?  It feels like it to me, and it's come as a surprise.  But I guess this would be good news, as there's a clear way of improving fitness.

With another tougher HM coming in 17 days, do you think I should do most of my remaining training at these very slow speeds to build up my slow-twitch fibre efficiency? Or just carry on as planned and don't do anything "haddish" until I can really concentrate on it.?



07/03/2013 at 06:44

Im following a 10k training plan - based on one from Runkeeper - where it states slow and easy or indeed 'steady' I am doing all of it as less than my recovery rate under the parker approach for HADD this would be 75% of maxHR.

By Mid June the 10k trailblazers behind me I will either do the same thing for HM training [oxford HM October] then start on pure HADD, for Autumn and winter, or just start HADD and run through the HM at whatever pace HADD gets me to by then.

Thats what Im doing that might not but what you want to do!

It would appear from what youve said you have a lot to gain from HADD

PS you are using pace to determine the speed not any partic HR?? Have you figured out your 75% MaxHR yet?

Edited: 07/03/2013 at 06:45
07/03/2013 at 06:51

Cheesy - you said you were using the Polar H4 with runkeeper and ismooth - both apps I have on my iphone, I use runkeeper all the time,  I use the FT2 polar HRM currently but it is very basic as it gives me one zone setting, timer, avgHR and maxHR on any run.

Im looking at purchasing the H4, is it any good and do I get more info and breakdown etc   ,,its about £50 so would like to be sure.  Whats youre feedback?

What is everyone else using and how good are they  ...feel a need for more stats coming along!

07/03/2013 at 07:45

Thanks Lee,  I haven't had a heart monitor on yet. Birthday is 8 weeks away, and I think that will be my treat.  I stopped briefly to feel my pulse twice last night and I'm confident that it was nicely under control...  I'd be surprised if it was above 75% but I know that's not exactly a reliable test I did there!

07/03/2013 at 08:03

Run Wales - I might be selling mine yet within 8 weeks!

07/03/2013 at 10:14

Hi Lee  sorry, was my bad, I didnt type the HR monitor name properly, its a Polar H7 bluetooth4 monitor, hence BT4, it pairs with the iphone.  I paid £50 for it, and although it is meant to pair with the iphone, being polar, it will also connect to most polar devices, and also most gym equipment! which the wahoo one doesnt.

One thing I do notice is that the first 1km or so it can be erratic if I forget to wet the contact strap first, they really dont like dry contact on skin, but theyn again they are not meant to be used that way. once its settled, it works great!

Being able to acurately track HR against pace and terrain is pretty cool if you like stuff like that, which I do 

It was so good, I bought my partner one as a present the first time she ran 1 hour continuously

Previously I had an FT4 polar, and another one which I forget the name for, they were good for monitoring, but thats it, you had to keep an eye on them all the time and it was hard to 'see' trends. I wouldnt go away from something that could chart HR, pace and terrain after using this, and when the iphone doesnt last long enough for a whole run, I will look at probably one of the garmins. bit too expensive at the moment for me tho, so will stick to the phone.

07/03/2013 at 10:57

Also Lee, I let ismoothrun update the runkeeper site, I dont have both apps running. I find the ismooth better for setting up workouts etc, and I prefer the voicefeedback on it. It also got around a couple of runkeeper bugs where it would give wrong times/distances if you couldnt upload straight away. (cant remember exactly, some time ago) The ghost runner is brilliant, set every minute to tell you how far ahead/behind you are on route, based on the pace set for that workout. 

07/03/2013 at 16:29

cheesy - just the same for me viz runkeeper and iSmooth stuff.  Love the ghost runner, thoguh hated it last November on a one and only track session everytime it said faster I could have thrown it !!

07/03/2013 at 16:38

Yep, Bedgebury forest often echoes to me swearing at that woman, I'm going as fast as I can ffs!

08/03/2013 at 10:33

Run Wales - "With another tougher HM coming in 17 days, do you think I should do most of my remaining training at these very slow speeds to build up my slow-twitch fibre efficiency?"

17 days will make no difference - especially if you have just run a HM. HADD is a longer term programme - think in terms of weeks not days

08/03/2013 at 11:11


I've been reading this thread with interest and reading about the HADD method, and all makes quite good sense- I wasn't really satisifed with the reason, you just have to run slower to run faster... so thanks for clearing it all up for me!

I'm doing Edinburgh marathon in May, and would love under 4 hours. It's probably too late to use this method properly, but would be grateful for some guidance.

I'm planning on doing my LSR at about 10:30 pacing (which I was reluctant to do before because didn't understand the physiological benefits). I was planning on doing one longish run at Marathon pace, and then the other runs just however I felt on the day. ( So not very structured I guess).

Do I need to use a HR monitor, or is the fact I can chat easily at 10:30 pace a good indicator that this will be working my slow muscle fibres?

I'd be very grateful for some advice. I really want to try and optimise my training this time round!

Thanks, Jess.

08/03/2013 at 11:52

Sadly as has been stated previously this type of training is no quick fix and is a program that is a much longer commitment than just trying to help with something only a couple of months away.

Adaptation is slow so the benefits take time to feed through.

However it certainly cant do you any harm to do slower running but you would need a HRM as I can talk comfortably at around 148 and my pulse should be below 138.

You can pick one up that will do the job for about £30   ...maybe wait until after Edinburgh and then start?

Im not currently doing HADD as like you I have some races in may and june but will probably start then.


08/03/2013 at 21:28
Welcome cheesy and jess.

Apologies I haven't posted much over the last week. My boss has been on hols and work has been mental. I am back in base (and Hadding) now for a few weeks, in prep for Amsterdam marathon in October.

Got 90mins with 70@80% today. Found it really tough on the legs!

As far as 17 days between halves is concerned, an easy week and maybe 2 sessions max in between times would fit the bill.

Wishing all fredites a great weekend!
09/03/2013 at 05:33



09/03/2013 at 19:05
Err... threadites
10/03/2013 at 14:07

Welcome to you all.fredites/ threadites/ or just ludites.

    18.4 miles this morning, in a time of 2.44 mins at 72% ave.

Swirling wind but dry.

10/03/2013 at 14:15

11k at 71% ave but was running with my partner at her pace so could keep slow. I really cant see how I will keep that slow on my own, but hey, will be giving it a go during the week runs.

11/03/2013 at 22:26

im still putting the miles in.    First ultra of the year on Saturday   just hope i can recover to keep the momentum goign

12/03/2013 at 05:56

Im slightly 'stalled' as both my achilles are playing up, saw Physio yesterday for treament and Ive been advised to get orthotics and where heeled slippers indoors - look like a freak!

Unbeknown to me I over pronate [what!!] as I have had an assessment by a - different - physio who said my gait was neutral.

So no mileage for me for at least a few days and certainly until my orthotics turn up and I get them assessed at my next treatment with the physio Friday.

Last run Sunday 7 miles; 3 miles at less than 138 [Hadd 75%!] averaged 10m 25s, 3 miles at less than 150 9m 30s and final recovery mile home getting back under 138 for the last half mile - 11m 40s.

Might have to go swim or cycle to burn off excess energy.


12/03/2013 at 13:06
Brian. wrote (see)


Morning all,

mace, I will guesstimate on your 70% run above, but I would be happier estimating on 80% (or even better 83%) for the 10miles in the middle.

My workings:

Your max looks like 180. You've done 8:45s for 128 (71%).

I am going to  reckon on you being able to average 86% in the marathon, which is 155bpm. This gives you another 27 beats on top of the 128.

The conversion from bpm to secs/mile is between 3 and 4. My conversion factor is 3 so for your puposes I'll use 3.

27x3 = 81s.

Marathon pace is 8:45 - 81 = 7:24 pace. This equates to 3:14. Remember this is a huge guess at the moment.

I know you are doing a P&D plan at the moment. Does it include MP runs? What distances?


Brian, been trying to message you today and yesterday but i can't send for some reason and i'm getting pee'd off typing the same message and then it failing  so i'll try on here.

I did the Lydd Half as the end part of a P&D 18M with 14M @ PMP on Sunday and pb'd the Half by 11mins .... i paced myself based on your comments above and it worked a treat  Started to work a bit harder miles 16-18 but most of that was into the wind and i managed to maintain 7:20's. I could definitely have done a couple more miles.

That's the good, but the slightly worrying part is that my HR reached 168 last 2 miles ( though it didn't feel THAT hard ) .... maybe my max is a fair bit higher than the 181 i think it is !!?? I did notice this morning when i reviewed my garmin stats for last weeks V02 session that i briefly hit 190's on the last 3 reps and peaked at 201 !!!!  would that be normal for 6 x 800's or are they spikes ?

Anyway, THANKS for putting the idea in my head because i don't think i'd have tried it otherwise.

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