HADD training plan

2,841 to 2,860 of 3,777 messages
18/03/2013 at 10:24

Hi all, spent most of the weekend reading through the posts here and feel that Hadd training is the way for me to go forward.

My current pb's are;

Parkrun 5k (2013) 23.39

10k (2012) 50.09

HM (2013) 1hr 52.09 (full of cold)

My HM felt good for the first 9 miles then I wilted seriously hence my searching for ways to build a better endurance base.

My LSR I generally run in about 9:10-9:40 pace, which is probably way too fast. So yesterday I went out for a LSR of 13.1 miles and slowed it down to an average of 10.10-10.15 pace with an average HR of about 150bpm, my maximum has hit about 200bpm - looking at everyone else's HR's mine seems a tad on the high side!

Reading through all the Hadd stuff I notice that generally you should work at about 70% of MaxHR, however I have also read about your slow runs being equal to your 5k PB + 3 mins, so I guess I need to slow down a bit more to about 10.30 min/miles or 140pbm HR?

I have another HM planned for 3 weeks so my plan is to slow my LSR's down and increase my mileage currently about 30miles per week. I will then try and put Hadd training into action. I have a 15 mile race in July and am hopng to do a marathon at the end of August so will use the Hadd as best as I can between now and then.

Any suggestions in the meantime very much welcomed.

19/03/2013 at 08:40

Welcome Lisa,

Just check the 200bpm isn't a 'spike' - I've had readings of 220 before now and I know my max is (was - as I haven't checked for a while) 184. Most of initial HADD training (depending on current fitness level) is done between 70% and 75%. Initially you may find 75% easier in terms of keeping the HR stable and given time you should find that the HR will drop for the same pace.

A good starting point (if you haven't already) is to read through the HADD document (I haven't got the direct link but there should be one a few pages back - or if someone has please post it here for Lisa)

19/03/2013 at 09:26
Welcome back NN (and welcome lisa too).
The word on the street is that HRmax for marathon is somewhere between 86 and 88%. What I have found from experience is that when I progress my 80% runs to 83%, the pace (over a 70min segment) equates to eventual mp. Also 83% is my starting hr in the marathon ie. I will run the first 6miles at 83% letting the hr increase gradually and evenly so as to hit 86% at halfway. The hr will continue to rise and inevitably will hit 90% at some point, hopefully not before the 20mile point.
Last 10k is "kitchen sink time".
19/03/2013 at 09:52
Hi lisa, the "5k + 3min" pace is generally used for runners who "can't" run at below 75%.
As BeDe says, you should aim for 70-75% range which appears go be 140-150 hr.

Keep it long and easy up until your hm, then we can use the stats from that race and your weekly training to assess the way forward.
Edited: 19/03/2013 at 09:53
19/03/2013 at 10:03

Thanks for the reply Brian, I have been assuming that 80% was going to be MP which is around 8.15-8.20 min miles, 78-82  was pretty steady for the whole 14 miles 1 hour 56 at the end of a really heavy weeks training so I was pleased with that .

19/03/2013 at 10:26

Brian, Thanks for your reply of 13th March.  I honestly thought I hadn't yet actually posted that question!

I'm still a confused though.   I see no reason why you cannot run at hadd-type heart-rates on 3-4 days a week, to train the efficiency of the slow-twitch muscle fibres....  and incorporate one or two more intense sessions. 

That programme seems to capture the main ethos of hadd (as I understand it) and be well balanced.  People seem to be saying that if they have any high intensity training in their normal week, then they cannot be considered to be hadd training... and there seems to be an implication that the high-intensity training is detrimental to the hadd training goals.

Any further clarification from anyone would be welcome.

19/03/2013 at 10:51

Run Wales ... Hadd training (as discussed here anyway) is "base training" ... the aim is to build the aerobic capacity of the muscles fibres. High intensity work that causes the body to swim in lactate will counteract this aerobic development. The sub-LT sessions are designed to run at an intensity that is not detrimental to aerobic development ... indeed they help it (and they ARE tough). Once base phase is over, then you bring in the harder sessions in the run up to the main target races ... during this period you start erode the aerobic base (which is why you need to build it properly to start with). The situation is probably most extreme with 800m runners ... by the end of the race season they have usually eroded their aerobic capacity down so low, they can't get up the stairs.

Still plodding along here with 6x5M and 1x13M per week, all easy ... 10K race on Sunday ... and then the sub-LT sessiosn will begin. I am racing the Leeds HM in 8 weeks and intend to use the sub-LT sessions as my main "session". Ideally I should be throwing in some HMP and 10KP but I won't have time.

19/03/2013 at 11:19
RunWales, I think at the end of the day you should run for enjoyment. Run the sessions that float your boat. I would say a couple of speedier sessions will not hurt too much as long as your body can cope with these on top of the other easy miles. As soon as you feel any niggle or breakdown, take extra care and revert to the easy stuff. Keep us posted!
19/03/2013 at 11:23
DrDan, I think you have a plan, and a good one at that. You will be flying in 8 weeks!
Good luck with the 10k. I would normally be marshalling but I've entered thirsk as a replacement for snake lane.
19/03/2013 at 14:32

Dr Dan - are your sub LT sesions at 80%?

19/03/2013 at 14:51

Hi guys,

sorry, been absent for a while due to P&D marathon training which is a bit less HADDy.

Good to see the usual suspects on here doing well

Hi Lisa, if you are still interested in the HADD doc, PM me and I e-mail it to you. Agree what others said - 200 could be a spike. I sometimes get silly readings too.

Still trying to mix some HADD into the P&D training by sticking to the 70-75% rule over the GA and long runs and incorporating some 80% stuff into the MLRs. It seems to work .

Paces overall have improved loads. Just a shame that winter has come back here with a vengeance affecting my running badly this week. There isn't enough snow to wear Yaktrax but too much to attempt anything slightly faster . My 10k race at the weekend was cancelled into the bargain. Oh well, my calendar is just telling me it's the official beginning of Spring tomorrow . Yeah, right ....

19/03/2013 at 15:12
BeDe wrote (see)

Dr Dan - are your sub LT sesions at 80%?

My target HR comes out at between 81-82%, although I usually run to pace for the first 2-3 miles and let the HR build up ... once I'm used to it, the final pace is usually around my "McMillan MP" based on what the calculator tells me I can run a marathon at (based on recent race times).

Nice Hadd-P&D merging there Chick. No snow in Leeds!

20/03/2013 at 10:43

Lucky you, Dr. Dan

P&D 13 miler with 10@ 80% d&d this morning. Very happy to manage 7:53 mm over the LT bit (@ 79% of max). My best sub LT run so far . Should move up to 83% now methinks ... but it's hard with all those extra layers to keep warm and trying to avoid the ice. Today was a bit hairy too in a few spots.

20/03/2013 at 11:26
Chick, great stuff on the 80% improvements. Not so sure I would move up yet though. Are you doing mp runs as part of p&d and if so whats target mp?

I did 10x1/4mile yesterday. Unwise though as my foot is sore today.
20/03/2013 at 11:40

Nice sub-LT session Chick!

Brian ... tasty! How did you do that session? Making use of the very handy 1/4 mile markers on the canal I'm guessing ... but what pace and how long were the rests?

3rd double commute day on the trot ... and after 13.2M on Sunday, the legs are telling me that's enough! Will cycle on Thursday, do a gentle 5ish in Friday and rest Saturday. And run like the wind on Sunday!

Edited: 20/03/2013 at 11:44
20/03/2013 at 11:45

Thanks Dr Dan & Brian,

I'm getting closer in my understanding... but I'm afraid I'm still asking questions!  Dr. Dan...  this really surprises me.  Maybe I'm misinterpretting it... I think you're saying that I can build up my aerobic system  with hadd (mitochondrials in the slow twitch etc)... on (say) 3-4 days a week... but if, on two other days, I do high intensity work, so that the muscles are swimming in lactates, this causes a reversal of the mitochondrial efficiency improvements.

And you're saying that during the season, an 800m runner exhausts their base fitness. Is this because a summer of lactate has eaten away at all the slow-twitch fibre mitochondrials...  or is it solely down to too little time training in the aerobic zone?

Ultimately, I'll follow the ethos that enjoyment is key. Any improvements I achieve might improve my race finishing postion from 200th place to 175th... so not likely to get a mention on Sky Sports News.. but I'm interested scientifically (despite my simplifications), and naturally feel that I might as well use knowledge to maximise the value of training.

20/03/2013 at 12:08

RW ... yes, I believe that the view is that the acidosis associated with lactate build up works against aerobic development. I remember Moraghan saying he couldn't even lift a pen without generating lactic acid by the end of his 800m season. Now, for a sporadic 5K-marathon hacker like me, I don't do nearly enough high-intensity stuff to worry too much about degrading aerobic base. But, technically, base phase shouldn't contain anything that generates lactate acid (so strides are okay, or short (5-8s) hill sprints).

20/03/2013 at 12:34


Brian. wrote (see)
Chick, great stuff on the 80% improvements. Not so sure I would move up yet though. Are you doing mp runs as part of p&d and if so whats target mp?

I did 10x1/4mile yesterday. Unwise though as my foot is sore today.

target MP is 7:48ish (aiming for sub 3:25), so I got pretty close. Wondering if 83% would be target MP (I think it might)

Edited: 20/03/2013 at 12:35
20/03/2013 at 14:36

Cheers DD.

20/03/2013 at 15:09
Chick nice running, this is where I have got a little confused trying to move from hadding to P&D set paces, for target marathon times,my MP runs at P&D pace are coming out at under 80%, so aybe I have been a little conservative at PMP oh I dont know 
Previously bookmarked threads are now visible in "Followed Threads". You can also manage notifications on these threads from the "Forum Settings" section of your profile settings page to prevent being sent an email when a reply is made.
Forum Jump