Brian, imo you have no need to apologise you have so much experience to share and I (for one) read replies with interest. I am however a newbie who has never run a marathon and it would appear that non of my replies/comments were worthy of a response from Khanivore (maybe I was just talking rubbish).
Keep posting - your making very good sense.
Thanks for taking time to contribute.
Andi to be honest I was doing my best to provide the data, then I went out for a run, and i posted some more info. I missed your posts. In answer to your questions I don't run-walk and I try to run with a high cadence and therefore take relatively small steps when running slowly.
Well, lively discussion going on here. For what is worth K, I think if you can stick at the 11 m/m pace for the next 4-5 wks on every run (and get about 35-45 miles per week in or alternatively get 5-6 hrs of running in for the week) you'll see results...that HR will drop at that pace. That is what you are looking for...that first moment of success with this approach...once you see that first result, you'll fall into the fold (and believe in this approach) and move deeper onto your new path of aerobic development. For me, it took a long while to be able to run at my 5K+2.5 min at a 70% HRave. I would go out and be near 80% at that pace (but still feel comfortable). It was hard to be disciplined and run slow...but after a while I went out and ran that pace at 75%...and so on. In the end, I can hit that pace now (actually much better than that pace) at less than 70%. But it has taken a while (including some stops/starts due to injury).
BTW, I love all the expertise here (including opinions from less seasoned members). It is a great learning environment. As a scientist, I always seek out those with expertise if I'm moving into a new area...why reinvent the wheel when we have great colleagues to help us, eh?
Sunday I had a 10 mile 80% effort in a really hilly area. Hit 7:06 m/m at 77%; it was a damn hard effort (in the wind/rain on legs that were positively abused going into that run) but I gutted it out (my quads actually felt tired near the end like I did in my marathon). Overall, was a great toughening run for me.
Today did my long run (15 miles today) with 9 @ a ~8:15 m/m at 70-72% range and then the last 6 at 7:50, 7:45, 7:30, 7:23, 7:13, and 7:11 (HR increased from ~75 to 83% over these miles). The good report is that I felt strong over these last miles (unlike the Sunday run).
Rest of my week will be easy efforts and another 80% Sunday. I've been trying to maximally space the 80% run and the long run to minimize injury risk. Overall, my body seems to be adapting to the increased mileage. Onward...
Khan, txs and remember, the knowing folks here are here to help you, they seem to know their stuff.
Well said VTr Guess your the proof of the pudding that this HADDing lark works
No running today as had an early start to the Ferry and the Mainland, got back around 6pm so chilled on the patio and 23 degrees C (rare in Scottyland). Hill repeats tomorrow and hope it's not so hot
VT, Quality feedback as ever. As Andi says you are a text book case that this stuff really works. 7:06 @ 77% is awesome!
Andi, are you confusing celsius with fahrenheit?
Khanivore, I think 142 or 11min/miles is the way forward for you. 6 weeks and see where your at. Keep posting and good luck!
I have some hadding to report:
Did 90mins with 70mins @ 80% yesterday along the towpath. Last time I did this run was in December and it came out at 7:00m/m. Yesterdays came out at 7:14 but satisfied with the run. Onward and upward....
Interesting time on the old HADD forum to come back to from my jolly jaunt in Spain
Managed a couple of walks in the mountains - nothing too strenuous, mostly on contoured tracks. Getting through customs with my 'Vorsprung Durch Technik' spine brace was interesting - they made me take it off and still frisked me all over!! I must have looked really dodgy
Still haven't heard when this thing can come off - they originally said 8 weeks. I assume like any other fracture it's a 6 to 8 week period. I'm 4 weeks in now, 4lbs heavier and goodness only knows whats happened to my base. Anyone any experience of a long lay off after HADDing and what happens when I come back?. I never did huge mileage - max 30 a week at peak training. Left leg also tight around the knee so I'm off for some physio on that next week.
A bit inside that I'm missing some quality time during the summer - but it is what it is and I'm pretty sure that when I start again I'll have a grin from ear to ear - whatever my times come out at
Andi, Brian thanks for the condolences - it was a conscious decision to save my legs for a better race. I had my eye on Halstead the next week, but after a few days in bed with a cold, I knew the Spring mara was over. Back to Hadd !!!
VT, Brian smashing pace on those subLTs
Khani good luck and keep posting
Bede wishing you a quick recovery.
I did my first subLT of this campaign yesterday. 1m warm-up to get ensure a good connection, then 10m. Came out at 7:58, but I levelled out at 84%, with a bit of slowing down in the last 3 (uphill) miles. Looks like I'm about 15 seconds slower than my April peak and 2 or 3% too high...which is true of all my runs at the moment. Mileage is back up to 50m pw, and I'm building back up to 70m pw, so let's see what the extra volume brings over the next 6 weeks.
VT Brian Tek Andi and anyone else I missed.. thanks very much for the advice. I re-read my posts and can now see how you may have thought i was ignoring you. I wasn't I promise. It was a combination of trying to read too many things at once (im a simple bloke and cant multitask) and being under time pressure to get out and do my run that did me in. Sorry.
I was going to run at 142 hr today but i woke up with a head cold and my resting heart rate was higher than it normally is. Consequently I just went out with the intention of running at 12 min miles. I did 8 miles at 12 min/mile at an average hr of 147. IF my max hr was measured correctly, and it seems it may not have been, this would be 79% of max hr. I know that is too high.
Anyway I'm going to take the advice on board and rather than 11 min/mile i will try 12 min/mile. I found I was ok doing that today and didn't get TOO frustrated even after 1.5hrs. My plan is to be doing 50 mpw in a month from now (or sooner if it feels safe).
Khan - what is your current weekly mileage?
Certainly no probs with me Khanivore - looking back I do think i was a bit abrupt.
BeDe, good that you were able to get out for walks, that helps maintain fitness. The bad news is you'll have to start again. But there is good news, you will not have lost all your fitness and therefore you will not be starting from scratch. Also your fitness will return faster
My session today wat 70mins
BeDe wrote (see)
Khan - what is your current weekly mileage?
I was at about at 30-35 and then spent several weeks at 35-40 in the run up to the London marathon. Since the marathon it's been 20, 16, 28, 26 and this week is at 24 with another 3 days of running to go.
Wow, the thread has exploded since yesterday Good to see you back, Tek. I wish I was doing sub 8mm initial LT runs ... have tried to do some since the marathon but they've all been more or less pants. I should know by know that a marathon erodes my aerobic base big time and that it takes something like 8 weeks to really recover . BeDe: at least you are walking. That accident sounded so horrific!! Longest non-running phase I had was 8 weeks. It took me 6 months to feel in control of my running again. Having said that I was out with pneumonia so it was always going to be a long slow way back to proper lung functionality first and then convince the rest of the body that it was moving again. Body didn't like it in the beginning and started to annoy me with a hip niggle . I soon ran that into submission though Brian / Khani: any form of written communication, especially forums and e-mails bear the risk of people misunderstanding what the other person meant or reading stuff between the lines that isn't there. Nobody on here is patronising - we are here to share our experience and help each other as much as we can.
VTrunner wrote (see)
Well, lively discussion going on here. For what is worth K, I think if you can stick at the 11 m/m pace for the next 4-5 wks on every run (and get about 35-45 miles per week in or alternatively get 5-6 hrs of running in for the week) you'll see results...that HR will drop at that pace. That is what you are looking for...that first moment of success with this approach...once you see that first result, you'll fall into the fold (and believe in this approach) and move deeper onto your new path of aerobic development. For me, it took a long while to be able to run at my 5K+2.5 min at a 70% HRave. I would go out and be near 80% at that pace (but still feel comfortable). It was hard to be disciplined and run slow...but after a while I went out and ran that pace at 75%...and so on. In the end, I can hit that pace now (actually much better than that pace) at less than 70%. But it has taken a while (including some stops/starts due to injury). BTW, I love all the expertise here (including opinions from less seasoned members). It is a great learning environment. As a scientist, I always seek out those with expertise if I'm moving into a new area...why reinvent the wheel when we have great colleagues to help us, eh?
Top post, VT. And top running too!! I have buried all plans for running more 10ks. Sunday's effort was a surprise but it also knocked me for six, showing me that I am still not over the marathon. Stupidly I attemped a sub LT run yesterday. Well, it ended in tears. After 5k I lost the will to live. My legs hurt like hell and the pace dropped with each passing k. Couldn't bear it anymore . Stopped and walked for a bit, then finished my run after 8 miles(instead of the planned 10). Rest day today and then it will be 70-75% running for a while until I feel better and strong enough to attempt sub LT again.Sorry for the self indulgent waffle at the end
Chick, your body is crying out for a break. You are a pretty methodical athlete (you get your work in rain or shine). I think you could possibly reach back to revel a bit more on your recent (huge) accomplishment in the marathon to offset the lower intensity running you propose. BTW, I think it is just what the doctor ordered so take it easy and let the mind relax on these runs. My guess is you'll ended up flying midway through a run in the near future (and feeling positively indestructible) and that will be your sign that all systems are go for the faster stuff again. In my case, I need to remember all of this for after my next race...I got hurt within a week of my last marathon.
BeDe, I lost 3 months last summer (w/no xtraining). It took a couple of months to get reasonably back in the fold fitness wise, but I was able to fairly quickly get back up to volume (even if it was slower and harder). But you should be in the acceptance phase now (e.g. you are no longer totally pissed that your training was interrupted...it was and now you realize you can be excited to begin again). As Brian says, it will come back quickly and you didn't lose all those adaptations...they stick with you.
Teknick, I think you'll find yourself much pleased in 6 wks with some consistent volume.
Brian, nice stats. A question: do you think the 5K training/racing eroded your aerobic base much? I think it's pretty good that you could do the 10 M 80% and feel comfy after this other type of training.
My other question for Brian, Chick, Mace, and others, do you think switching to the P&D 55-70 mile plan from where I sit now would be a sound move for this fall marathon? After looking through, there is some speed work, but the formal 10 mile 80% run isn't necessarily there anymore (there are some shorter tempo runs). While I am running 80% at near 7 m/m now, I fully expect that running a targeted 7:25 pace for 26.2 will be very hard to do. Anyway, I'm almost reluctant to give up that 80% run...
Personally I would stick witht the HADD. Give yourself a yardstick?
Chick - wise move, sounds like you need to take it easy for a few weeks. I guess the effect of the marathon and it's potential to bite us in the arse lurks for a fair while, probably longer than we realise.
Khanivore- a 4hr marathon is a good return i'd have thought for 35M weeks.
VT - the 80% runs in P&D are effectively the long runs with chunks of MP in them. The HADD method is to nudge the 80% up with the aim of improving lactate threshold and eventually/ideally MP will be just below this threshold. No reason why you can't mix it up a bit either and maybe make some of the mid week MLR's sub-LT/MP runs. I'd absolutely recommend P&D and if you follow it you'll get to the start line in great shape.
Chick, smell the coffee for a while.
Vt, i do think the shorter sruff hindered my aerobic development. But the trade off was leg speed. I needed to do the 5ks for my own peace of mind, I hate them and I'm rubbish (relatively speaking) at them. It is all part of my big plan
others have moved from hadd to p&d to great effect so why not you?
As always there is risk involved and you need to weigh up the pros and cons. You have a great base for whatever you choose. I personally think you will eat 7.25 pace.
Thanks for all your kind words, guys. I actually had a decent run this morning. Set my Garmin to HR only and was quite surprised to see 8:40 pace @ 70%. Best run I've had since the marathon. Mind you, it was only 7 miles. But still ... VT: I've been mixing HADD and the 12 week P&D 55-70 pretty successfully twice with the full intention of doing it again this way. P&D & HADD are pretty compatible in many ways. Run the long and general aerobic ones in the 70-75% range and get your 80% from the MP runs. There's only marginal speedwork in P&D and I don't think it would negatively affect your aerobic base. If anything, it helps with leg speed. A bit like Brian's recent 5k efforts.I even did one weekly MLR with 10 miles @ 80% thrown in. Towards the end of that training cycle it pretty much came out at MP. This may bear a bit of an injury risk. Luckily (fingers crossed) I am very fortunate and don't often pick up injuries. But for some this may be too much, so apply with care.
forgot to say: very intrigued what your "big plan" is, Brian
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