HADD training plan

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23/06/2013 at 19:09

Brian, great run/s and excellent marriage milestone! 

Well, I thought my tum was behaving itself but at mile 6 had to dart into the bushes (no more on that subject).

Teknik, 64.4 is probably a good month for me - am in awe

Well done on the runs Roy and Haddtaskic is my word for the week

Apart from the stop for the bushes during my 16.1 miles I had to pause at around 7.5 miles for a coach to come over a small bridge. there was another couple (of walkers) there and the women (looking worried) asked me if I was alright whilst pointing to my Jacket, it was day glo yellow and half of the right side was bright red fading to orange at the edges. The 'wound' from my HRM had opened and apart from the sharp stings when I'd started sweating din't think anything was wrong. Mt t-shirt looks like a tie die shirt from the 70's lol.

My goal for today was 12-12:30 min miles and ended up averaging 11:59/ mile so quite pleased.

40.25 miles in 7:29 @ 11:09/mile and 69% of HRR. My mini goal of having my inclination reach the top of Ben more (3169) was smashed with 3722 feet so next goal will be Ben Nevis @4409 feet.

24/06/2013 at 03:36

Howdy folks. 18 for me today at 8:15 m/m HR ave 143 (72%). Was super humid but not scorching (the run were you aren't cooking but you sweat profusely throughout). Took this one very relaxed and didn't push. Felt great pretty much the whole way...kept a nice low HR throughout...

Tek, we had similar weeks. 62.5 miles for me at 71% ave. Will keep my recoveries in the 65% range for a while...good advice.

Congrats Brian!

Edited: 24/06/2013 at 03:38
24/06/2013 at 08:46

Morning all, and thnx for the congrats! Had a lovely meal last night, the mrs really enjoyed it.

Roy, we would get less for murder. Sounds like you are in a good place at the moment. 2 races in a day - top bombing!

Teknik, Good long run, very good mileage and excellent numbers!

Andi, ouch! You should be ashamed of yourself - frightening the tourists. Hope the wound heals quickly. Make sure it doesn't get infected. Nice mileage and even better hill work.

VT, Wow! Those are good numbers for your long, hot run!

My scores on the doors - 15.8 mile hilly long run (8:32/68%) Weekly total - 63.7miles 8h38mins 67.9% 8:04 pace

24/06/2013 at 09:59

Brian - congratulations to you and especially to Mrs Brian for putting up with you for so long!  Nice long run and very nice weekly stats!

Tek and VT - likewise, great week training and long runs.

Andi - not sure about the guts and wounds but otherwise sounds like you'e also had a good week.

Planned 13.2M had to be cut short due to Dad's taxi duties, so ended up with 11.6M at sub-70% and 9:26/m. LSRs at 70% have gone 9:56/m, 9:36/m and 9:26/m in the first 3 weeks of post-injury training, so happy with progress. I had to work of Saturday and planned to bike but logistics meant having to drive, so missed my 6th consecutive commute. Overall mileage ended up as 50M on the bike and 33M running (9:16/m at 71% maxHR).

24/06/2013 at 12:10

Andi, Brian, Dr Dan, Spen, VT et al,

Keep on HADDing y'all

5 weeks left in brace for me Looking forward to getting back to a slow start. Banned from cycling at the moment so fitness taking a hit. Left knee took a real twist in the accident and my tendons around it are painful when doing a quad stretch - walking is fine though. Not sure if that will be an issue which might affect (eventually) the running. Apologies for sounding miserable - don't want to bring the tone of this wonderful thread down - just need to get it off my chest

Andi - I think you'll be surprised when it comes to the actual race (HM) what you will achieve based on what you are doing now. Can't comment on full mara as last time I did one of those was 30 years ago!!

24/06/2013 at 12:40

aw, BeDe - come on here and be miserable as much as you like. I can't even begin to think how you must feel in that brace of yours.

Wow guys - been absent for a few days and so many new posts and great running to  catch up on!!

Teknik wrote (see)

(2) Average versus Ceiling.  This is not in the doc, and I guess that's because Joe was already a fit runner and didn't experience much drift.  If I set out on a LSR at 75%, I'm going to be drifting above that after about 8 miles.  So, like you, I'm a fan of trying to keep it under 70%, or lower, for as long as possible, until I give in and let myself drift to 75% (but no higher...i.e. slow down)

+1, Tek. Exactly my thinking and what I'm sticking to in training.

Andi McGill 2 wrote (see)

Quick question folks, still 14 weeks to my marathon and have the Mull Half in 7 weeks, I plan (nay hope) on running this in 2:20 (Hal H's time if I want a 4:55 Mara). I'm happily plodding around at 70% HRR but should I start to do some 80% runs before the half?

I think the others pretty much covered it already. I may just add that our "bible" states that 80% runs should only be introduced once you are covering 50+ mile weeks comfortably.

Dr.Dan wrote (see)

Yesterday's plan panned out ... after cycling to work (5M)...  and working ... I left at 4pm and ran to South Leeds Stadium (3.7M), watched the boy smash his 800m PB by 5s (now 02:27), ran back to work (3.7M) and then cycled home (5M). Running was a bit faster than my usual easy pace but came out at bang on 75% maxHR and bang on 9/m.

Blimey, Dr. Dan. That boy of yours is proper fast! My 800m PB is 2:58  ... I'm clearly not a FT person ...

spen71 wrote (see)

70% is the way forward (for the time being as my legs get used to 80 miles a week)

did I read EIGHTY miles   Jeepers! Pretty serious mileage there. I'm jealous ...

Brian. wrote (see)

Ran to the cricket yesterday. Got just short of 9 in at 69%. U15 game this morning has been called off.  So going out for a couple of hours. Going for a meal with mrs b this evening to celebrate 29 years of marriage. Hope everyone gets in their long runs.

Congrats on your anniversary, Brian

Well I covered my first serious week since the marathon - 53 miles, with my longest run since the marathon yesterday at 14 and a bit. Stupidly I ran at mid-day so 70% was out of the question. I managed the first half at 70% but then it crept up. Still, average ended up being 73%. Av. pace 8:48. Not brilliant but OK for my level of fitness at the mo

24/06/2013 at 13:54

Hang in there BeDe... the running Gods owe you a big one.

Nice long run Chick! Yep, I don't think I'll race the boy over 800m or 1M - that pace is for the young'uns. We're competitive over 5K ... longer that and he hasn't the stamina at this stage (yesterday's 6.5M LSR was his longest ever run).

Bike commuting and a lunchtime 5.5M at 8:23/m and 74% maxHR for me. I'm hoping to have a go at sub-LT tomorrow.

Edited: 24/06/2013 at 13:54
24/06/2013 at 19:29

Txs all though doubt I'll get close to 40 miles again this week, off to watch a Bungy Jump in Glasgow Saturday then down to my Parents for a few days.

Brian, Dr.Dan, Chick, well done on the weeks activities and BeDe, time will fly by (hopefully) so maybe when your back HADDing you might want to target a Marathon (say) in 2014??

Chick, 50+ Miles a week was never in my mind until I started HADDing so maybe one day  I'll 'qualify' to do the odd 80% run

Went for a 4 mile recovery run today and had my HRM above my nips! Got some weird readings a couple of times. Ended up 12:04/mile and 67% but was hoping the HRR to be lower at that pace (was quite hot mind).

25/06/2013 at 09:37

 You don't need to be at 50 mpw before starting 80% runs. I think it's fine to start when your weekly mileage is stable and your 70% pace is stable. I plan to start today ... although falling off my bike this morning may result in a change of plans once I get started (just a grazed knee ... an unclipping error).

25/06/2013 at 09:55

Andi - I was doing 28-32 mpw at 70-75%. I started my 80% runs as 'part' of one of my normal runs (so for a 60min run I would insert say 20mins at 80%) and slowly increased the time. I think I started at 15 mins and increased it by 5 - 7mins each week. I used this method because the first time I tried a full on 80% run I got injured! I was training for HM's.

25/06/2013 at 10:12

I concur with DrDan. Because we all run at different paces,  I tend to qoute time rather than miles. 6hrs plus is a reasonable target rather than 50miles.

I do also think the more sensible milestone is a slowing in improvement over 70min 70% runs.

The point at which you move up to 80% also would depend on experience. 

Hope this helps. 

Edit: Yep BeDe, If you are willing to start with a small portion, I think this reduces the risk and would allow an earlier start. When I quote 80% runs, I am referring to 70mins@80%

Edited: 25/06/2013 at 10:19
25/06/2013 at 15:06

Talking of sub-LT sessions... first one of the campaign.

7.6M total with 5.25 at sub-LT. I usually take 145bpm as my marker - I realise that I haven't adjusted my maxHR (178 bpm) for a few years and perhaps should lower it down to 175 bpm. So, 145 bpm would have been 81% maxHR but probably more like 83% now.  I felt pretty good and the 5.25M came out at a reasonably stable 7:50/m ... I have had this down to 7:10/m, so some way to go yet. However, for now I will gradually increase the mileage at this HR and hopefully the pace will also increase as I do.

25/06/2013 at 15:10

I stand corrected then

Andi: forgot to mention yesterday: amazing improvement in your 10k times. Not only did the pace drop but your HR got lower and lower too. Sweet

Probably got carried away then coz I love my miles

Dr. Dan: ouch   I'm pretty clumsy with cleats too so I kind of stopped using them

Did a decent sub-LT run today - 11.2 miles with 10 @ 80%, averaging 7:59. So, getting there . There was some drift over the final 2.5 miles but I ran them into a fierce wind. At least that's my excuse.

25/06/2013 at 15:11

xpost, Dr. Dan: nice sub LT running!

25/06/2013 at 15:22

DrDan/chick, good stuff on the sub-lt runs. My turn tomora.

68mins @65.8% at llunch. Would've been enjoyable but for the pain in my butt (gym inflicted).

25/06/2013 at 15:54

Wow, it's busy on here!  Sounds like everyone is doing some amazing running!  Just the thought of 80miles a week makes me tired and congrats to everyone on PBs, improvements and wedding anniversaries

BeDe - hang in there and feel free to complain as much as you like.  I can only begin to imagine how frustrated you must be feeling.  No other option but to have patience at the moment I think.  Commiserations though.

I'm waiting on blood results to see how things are doing iron-wise but I've stepped up my supplements just in case.  I know it can take a few weeks to see a difference. Managed 22miles on Saturday but the average pace came out at 11min/mile and my AHR was 154 so definitely significant drift and slowdown (*incoming excuse* it was hot and humid!).  I should probably cut back on my miles for a bit.  I just don't want to feel I didn't work enough on stamina/endurance if I don't make my target in Glasgow.  Haven't run since Sunday because I overslept today - oops - but will see how I feel tomorrow after my extended rest  

Keep up the good work everybody!

25/06/2013 at 18:55

Nice subLTs everyone (Dr. Dan, the comeback is on!).

Today was scheduled as 9 miles with 5 at lactate threshold (they say this should be either 15K or half marathon pace). I modified and did 9.5 M with 7 at more like 83%. Even though my overall pace was slow based on my recent efforts, this was a great run for me. It was 82 degrees in full sun and 90% humidity and I didn't wilt. I could tell my pace slowed after the first couple miles, but I kept my effort dialed in. Could have kept going several more miles at least. It is something though how the heat impacts speed. See below for case and point.




Edited: 25/06/2013 at 18:58
25/06/2013 at 20:21

Txs for all the advice Guys (and Gals). Running is fast (pun intended) becoming the easy part - it's knowing how fast, far and what HR% to do them but am starting to see the wood for the trees

Brian, didn't have you down as a pain in the butt hope it clears up and good call about time over distance - makes sense for the slower runner like me.

Txs Chick and yes, things are starting to 'happen' methinks. Nice run and at a pace I'm still dreaming about

Nice running Dr.Dan. Yes, might be an idea to dedo your MAX however, I did read that your MAX doesn't change much but your resting HR (if you use it) does. I did a MAX HR a few years ago (180) but if I see higher on a semi regular basis I used to recalculate and currently at 188 but never get close to it since I tried HADDing.

BeDe, I like your idea of building up slowly (always looking for an easy(ish) route.

So, armed with my new information I took bits of it and probably had one of those 'junk' mile runs lol. 6 Miles @10:33/m and 73% HRR. My plan was to try and maintain pace up  the inclines until I got to 80% after mile 2. Was actually quite easy to maintain 80% however was still going slowly. I might do similar once a week but put more into sub 70% runs.

26/06/2013 at 10:00

Nice numbers VT ... tough work in those conditions and not surpising to see the drift as the body tries to keep cool.

- in the earlier post quoted below, Hadd suggests how to build in sub-LT sessions gradually (Tue & Fri sessions).

Also, another way of thinking about when to start the sub-LTs ... Hadd had "Joe" start when he was running 50 mpw at 70% maxHR ... but Joe went on to run 80+ mpw. So, if my target is say 50-60 mpw, I feel I could start sub-LTing at 30-35 mpw.

MaxHR is genetically set but it drops by about 1 bpm per year ... hence I feel I should modify mine now as it's been about 3 years since I did the test. Resting HR improves with fitness.

Dr.Dan wrote (see)

Hadd does say 70% maxHR in places outside his "document".

HADD (http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?board=1&id=2357345&thread=2357345):

"In time it's possible for you to run a marathon averaging 168-170 HR the whole way (based on your 191 HRmax).

Right now you know you cannot hold that effort for that long, but it'll come with training.

Your easy running should be ~70% HRmax. So for you that means low-130s HR (say 130-135). Right now, that probably feels like walking and you don't want to go "that slow", but I would suggest you work down to it over time.

Right now you can keep your HR under 145 for a long run, once you find this easy to do (ie: the pace doesn't feel maddeningly slow) try keeping the HR under 140 for long stretches (although you can let it climb on uphills, but once on the flat again at the top, once again bring the HR under control).

Two days per week do this:
Tue: a session at 150-155 HR (~80% HRmax)
Fri: a session at 155-160 HR (~85% HRmax)

The Tues session can start at 2 x 15 mins (as you are doing) and slowly build up along these lines as you get more and more comfortable at that effort:
2 x 15 mins, 2 x 20 mins, 3 x 15 mins, 1 x 30 mins, 30 mins + 15 mins, 1 x 40 mins, 35 mins + 15 mins, 1 x 45 mins...

There is no need to take every step I give above, but slowly try and increase the amount of time you can run at 150-155. Take a relaxed 3-5 mins jog break in between each long rep.

The Fri session you can begin shorter;
2 x 8-10 mins with 3-5 mins jog break. Then build to 2 x 12 mins, 2 x 15 mins, etc. Don't be in a hurry to build, let the physical adaptations happen in your muscles and it will get easier and easier as the weeks go by.

You should find that as well as you gaining the ability to go longer and longer at this effort level, that the pace at these HRs improves over the weeks. But don't get too anal about whether each session is faster than the week before, just get the work in. Improvement is not linear.

Give it 6 weeks at these effort levels (increasing the length of the reps over the six-week period), and then post up again.

Do a 10 min jog warm up before each session. Some simple stretches and 3 x 100m strides with 60 secs jog break) and then begin."




26/06/2013 at 11:31

Andi nice stats for the week.  I too have a HR strap scar - my strap is now wrapped in surgical tape

VT great 18 miler on Sunday, and a good effort in the heat for the fast run !

Brian super low HR for the week's totals.  Hope you shake the gym ache quickly.

DD nice progress on the long run pace/ HR.  Well done on the first subLT

BeDe hope you're ok

Chick nice subLT; you're inching ahead of me...

RR awesome 22 miler in the heat


Work day for me: 1m w/up then 9m subLT.  Averaged 8:05mm (4 secs quicker), HR levelled out at 82% (last week I was still drifting), so happy with the run.  17 weeks until Frankfurt - 4 secs improvement per week would be nice


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