HADD training plan

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31/07/2012 at 10:55
Dr.Dan wrote (see)
..... we're off to London this weekend.


That's just lazy DD

ENJOY !!

 

Edited: 31/07/2012 at 10:58
31/07/2012 at 11:24

Nice work, Dr. Dan . Well done on keeping those nerves at bay. I'd love to do a tri one day but I'm freaked about the swimming. I'm a lousy swimmer anyway and the concept of people thrashing about left, right and centre is a bit off-putting...
Enjoy London! Did you get Olympic tickets?

Tortuga: how did the max HR test go? I'd imagine a few days fasting whilst still training will leave you pretty much depleted. A bit of food an hour before won't cut in IMHO. So perhaps it's better to leave the whole thing until after Ramadan? Like others said 15m/m seems excessively slow and would indicate that you are working with a wrong guesstimated max HR. My first couple of runs were a tad slower than 10m/m (and also a bit over the 5k pace plus 3 min rule) but soon started to improve and now start with an 8.

Brian: nice out and back run there the other day. I agree on doing a proper warm up before commencing the ILT work. Even with a warm up it still takes me about 2 miles to get to 80%. If I tried to hit 80% from the word go these runs would be way too hard and end with a disappointing second half swearing at the stupid Garmin and with its HR display

Managed 63 miles last week, including some ILT and also MP running, so all looking good for an October marathon

31/07/2012 at 11:52

Great mileage and training chick! 

Yep, the swimming bit is my least favourite part but I am slowly improving ... bit disapointed I couldn't capitalise on that improvement on Sunday but at least I know it's lurking for the next time.

We only managed to get Olympic tickets for the men's volleyball but will be watching the men's Tri fromt he roadside the next day.

01/08/2012 at 09:29

Weekly sub-LT this morning. Slightly shorter warm up and cool down but added in an extra lap of sub-LT so ended up 85mins with nearly 70 @ sub-LT.

I followed Dr.Dan's advice and eased my way in to 80% rather than hitting it straight away and managed a much more even pace because of that. However, overall i was about 23 seconds a mile slower for slightly less effort so a bit disappointed in that respect. I think maybe i'm due an easier week as i've slowly been building mileage and the last 4 weeks are 35 - 36 - 38 - 40. Does anyone have any comment on that ? I was going to cut back week after next as i'm on holiday then for 2 weeks.

 

Anyway, sub-LT section and comparison to last week was :

Lap        Miles           Time           Pace         HR              Last week

1            1.31             11:22          8:41         136              8:03     139

2            1.31             11:19          8:37         138              8:09     140

3            1.31             11:23          8:37         139              8:18     141

4            1.31             11:28          8:39         140              8:31     141 

5            1.31             11:39          8:51         140              8:37     141

6            1.31             11:41          8:53         140             

tot/ave    7.86            68:52          8:44         138.8           8:21      140.4

 

I also slept pretty crap last night .... awake at about 3.30 and didn't get back to sleep so that may be another factor to c

Edited: 01/08/2012 at 09:33
01/08/2012 at 09:40

Bit of trouble editing ( can't edit again for some reason ) ...

 

I also slept pretty crap last night .... awake at 3.30 and didn't get back to sleep so that may be another factor to consider. Or maybe just a relativel poor run ?

I'd be interested in thoughts on cutting back though ?

 

01/08/2012 at 09:45

The general rule on cutting back is every fourth week, so you're due one....I tend to go on feel, I had a hard week last week and I'll be cutting back this week even though this is "week 3" and not "week 4" for me.

01/08/2012 at 11:09
Hi all,

I've had a week away so had an easy week with 3 x 45 min runs at 70%.

Did 55mins last night which felt tough after a week on holiday! Got a 10k on Thursday evening and then got a 100 min run planned at weekend.

As well as that I've been doing a lot of swimming as once my hm in Sept is out of the way I'm going to have a go at some tri (when the season starts again) - seems everyone is at it! So I did about 500mtrs swim on Monday night too.

Dr Dan - what kind of bike do you have? I was looking at getting a cyclocross bike for tri (so that I could still do off road riding) but it sounds like you found yours a hinderance?
01/08/2012 at 11:16

Interesting run for me this morning.... after feeling some soreness in my ankles after my long run Saturday, I've rested till today and decided on an easy 60 minutes.

It didn't take too long for my ankles to start hurting again, I was also struggling to keep my HR down to such an extent that I was on the point of binning the run with 25 minutes left and walking home.

After a rather loud "f**k it" I decided to speed up from my plodding 6:00/km to about 4:30/km and it was like someone had flicked a switch.... all pain gone immediately... the last 4k was a joy, that floating feeling of hardly glancing the ground each step.

I'm not sure where now.... clearly my running form collapses when I run too slowly and this exacerbates an underlying ankle weakness. 4:30/km is what FIRST suggests for my long runs... my HR will be well over 150bpm at this speed, more like 180.

Bit unsure about this HADD stuff now. It's certainly put some miles in my legs but I might have reached my limit.

Edited: 01/08/2012 at 11:33
01/08/2012 at 11:37

hehe, Mark F... I keep swearing at my Garmin if it shows numbers that I don't like. People around me must think I'm completely bonkers. OMG - that is a crazy relationship between FIRST and HADD pace there ... you sure you got your HR max figured out correctly? I plod around 5:30-5:40/km but 4:30 would be 10 mile race pace for me. I know the Furman plan is nuts (I did it for a year in 2009) but there's no bliddy way could I do 4:30 as long run pace . I reckon you are a much faster runner than me so obviously that plod pace will throw your running form out of the window and you end up niggly.

mace: suboptimal recovery (i. e. less sleep) and high mileage will definitely affect running pace. Well, it'd better coz I had a shite sub-LT run this morning . I felt like I was running uphill all the way round. What a struggle. Me no like .
10 miles at 8:33/mile av. pace (5:19/k). Normally I get close to 8mm on those. AND I did a 14 miler at the exact same pace last week albeit at plodding HR

Onwards and upwards - as long as we work at the right intensity we should see some training benefit.

01/08/2012 at 12:46

 a very loud " Oh PISS OFF " is my usual response to my HR alarm kicking off .... i'm sure people must think i'm mad !!

Mark - thanks, i think i'll cut back to around 30 this week so will rest tomorrow ( instead of a 6 ) and will cut long run on Sunday to 10ish. Does that sound ok ?

chick' - sorry to hear you're in the same boat as me today, maybe it's in the air. Mine didn't feel like a bad run, it felt very good ( i would say more comfortable than last week for the same(ish) HR effort) and i was itching to go faster. But i was surprised how quickly/easily i got to 136bpm and suspected i was slower than last week. Overall it's left me a bit confused. So, cut back and go again next week me thinks .... when hopefully I should pee all over today's run

 

 

 

01/08/2012 at 12:49

Chick - you get days like that. The next one will kost likely be back to normal again. 

forty_44 wrote (see)
Dr Dan - what kind of bike do you have? I was looking at getting a cyclocross bike for tri (so that I could still do off road riding) but it sounds like you found yours a hinderance?

I had the same idea about a cyclo-cross bike but in fact they are not much use off road ... no suspension and dropped handle bars are not helpful. They are designed to use on grass ... but they are good for winter road cycling and I like mine for commuting as I carry a relatively big pannier pack with me and the bike feels strong. But if I had my choice again, I'd have gone for a straight road bike.

mace wrote (see)
I followed Dr.Dan's advice and eased my way in to 80% rather than hitting it straight away and managed a much more even pace because of that. However, overall i was about 23 seconds a mile slower for slightly less effort so a bit disappointed in that respect.

Don't be disapointed ... you slowed down for the first few miles, so obviously the pace will be slower. BUT you would have been able to continue the session for longer at sub-LT heart rate ... and that's what you're aiming for.

M.arkF wrote (see)
Bit unsure about this HADD stuff now. It's certainly put some miles in my legs but I might have reached my limit.

Slow mileage is still mileage and it will still lead to niggles and injury if you don't build up carefully and slowly. Faster mileage will be more "dangerous" though. I can't cope with km ... you're just about the only runner I see quoting paces this way ... My long run pace is 5.85/km and 4:30/km is 7:15/m right? That's pretty intense for a long run ... that's my sub-LT pace.

I did 18M this morning...first 11M at 9:25/m for 122 bpm (68.5% maxHR) and then I gradually increased the intensity for the next 6 laps (approx 10K) until I got to my sub-LT threshold...

09:02 127 bpm
08:47 132 bpm
08:17 138 bpm
08:19 140 bpm
08:04 146 bpm
08:03 147 bpm (82.5% maxHR)
... and then jogged back the final 0.75M.

Pace at the end was much slower than a normal sub-LT session but I was starting to tie up by this stage. But, as I can't fit in a sub-LT session this week, the hard end to this long run will be the substitute. If I recover well enough, I'll have a bash at 5K race pace on Saturday (parkrun).

 

01/08/2012 at 13:48
That's really put the cat amongst the pigeons with my bike plans then... My off road would have been canal paths, bit of woodland etc, and then I was planning to pur slicker tyres on it for road use to reduce the drag. What make and model is yours Dan?
01/08/2012 at 14:09

The reason I started this HADD plan in the first place is that I was finding the FIRST plan tiring physically, although my legs were fine....the first "long" run of the FIRST 18-week HM plan was 15k at 4:28/km... I managed it ok (I'd just done a HM fairly easily at 4:29/km) but together with the tempo and interval session, after a couple of weeks I was feeling both tired and lacking motivation.

The problem I'm having with the HADD paces is that my max HR is about 204... I've historically tried to keep my HR sub-170 on my long runs (gets over 180 on FIRST long runs), but running at sub-150 for HADD is a big difference. I can clearly see it has had benefits over the past 6 weeks, but at a physical cost... I think this is both the increse in mileage (although restricted to 10% a week) and the slower pace affecting my run-form.

I have a long-standing ankle weakness... I've twisted it so many times over the years, including a bad double twist last autumn that had me out for 6 weeks, that it's always an injury waiting to happen... changing to forefoot-strike has mitigated this a lot, slowing my running down seems to have had the opposite effect.

I think I'll continue this week with a couple more 60 minute runs, going on feel.... I'll leave the HRM at home, and see how my ankle feels before deciding what to do next.

01/08/2012 at 14:40
M.arkF wrote (see)

The reason I started this HADD plan in the first place is that I was finding the FIRST plan tiring physically, although my legs were fine....the first "long" run of the FIRST 18-week HM plan was 15k at 4:28/km... I managed it ok (I'd just done a HM fairly easily at 4:29/km) but together with the tempo and interval session, after a couple of weeks I was feeling both tired and lacking motivation.

Not surprised that FIRST plan left you feeling tired! 9M at HM pace  ... and then a tempo & intervals session !! Ouch!

What is your "5K pace + 3 minutes" ... does that come out at a more sensible pace? This is the pace Hadd suggests if sub-70% is too slow (i.e. results in poor running form). Check your average HR at this pace ... after several weeks it should start to come down so that, eventually, this pace becomes your sub-70% pace.

 

01/08/2012 at 14:46
forty_44 wrote (see)
That's really put the cat amongst the pigeons with my bike plans then... My off road would have been canal paths, bit of woodland etc, and then I was planning to pur slicker tyres on it for road use to reduce the drag. What make and model is yours Dan?

I had exactly the same plan ... it didn't work out though and so I don't go off road (even the canal two-path is no pleasant). I got a Revolution Cross (Edinburgh Cycle Co-Op) ... eventually swapped the 32 knobblies for 28 slicks and just stay on tarmac now. A hydrid is a better option for on-road/off-road ... but it won't be too good for racing. The best option is a road bike for the roads and a mountain bike for trails/canal towpaths.

01/08/2012 at 14:53

Dr.Dan... I reckon I'm in 19:30 5k shape at the moment... what do you mean by 5k pace + 3 minutes ?

Take my 5k pace in mins/mile and add 3 to it ? Or take my 5k time and add 3 to it ?

01/08/2012 at 15:07

5k pace in mins/mile and add 3 to it  ... so 6:16+3 ... about 9:15/m, or 5:45/km in your language. That might feel a bit more comfortable than 9:40/m or 6/Km you're doing at the moment.

01/08/2012 at 17:00

Dr. Dan... Thanks... I have managed 5:17/km at 148bpm over 60 minutes on the flat a few weeks back... this felt reasonable speed-wise... maybe I should just forget the HR and try my long run at about 5:20 - 5:30/km and see how I go.... might be an idea to jump into the sub-LT sessions now as well instead of plodding away during the week.... these should be well under 5:00/km.

01/08/2012 at 17:10

Sounds like that may work for you ... run by pace but wear the HRM on the 5:20 - 5:30/km runs and record the avHR, so that you can monitor improvement.

01/08/2012 at 19:33

Hi all, I've not been running long at all (about 4 months), after years of smoking

Anyway, quit smoking about 6 months ago so decided to get fit instead! I have only done 1 race (Great North 10k) which I managed to get round in 58.42. I think it worked out about 9.20m/mile. Nowhere near as good as you all but it's a start!

I've spent quite a few hours reading the forums and thought that HR training could help me improve.

I bought a HR monitor and set out for my 1st run. It was very hard to go so slow, I ended up doing 5 miles in about 11.25m/mile. The other worrying thing was that my HR was between 150-160 bpm (up to 80%). It was about 20 degrees though.

This run/walk was very easy and I could have easily done it all again. 

Do you think my HR bpm / % is correct or have I entered the wrong numbers? I'm 28yr old

Please help!!

Edited: 01/08/2012 at 19:40
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