HADD training plan

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16/10/2012 at 10:45

managed 23 miles last week, although three of them were a Parkrun. Aiming for 25 this week. how come running slow feels so hard sometimes, as in uncomfortable? it feels more natural to run at a faster pace, although perhaps that would be less sustainable. anyway, sticking at it, albeit i was very tired running into work this morning. I suppose it doesn't really matter if you're tired or your form isn't particularly good if you're just trying to get time on your feet, right?

16/10/2012 at 11:01

AG - interesting point about feeling comfortable and something i was thinking this morning during my run. Until recently my HRmax ( from i max test when i started HADD back in March ) was 173. So for the past 6 months i've been running mostly at around 121bpm ( 70% of 173 ) but i was always nudging the HR up wanting to go a bit faster and had to check myself back to 70%. I found that around 127 ish was more natural and when i did run to feel that was usually around my HRav.

So, interesting that my recent max of 181 gives a 70% HR of the 127 that felt so comfortable and natural before ....

16/10/2012 at 12:34

Thanks, guys.

VT runner
: good to see you back running. Fingers crossed you stay injury-free.

AG: I don't like running fast and really enjoyed HADDing. But I've heard from others before that they struggle with the relatively slow paces and how it destroys their running form.

mace: very interesting indeed. It's damn difficult to test one's HR max... at least I found it monster-hard to motivate myself to run THAT hard .
I ran the marathon purely on pace. I know that my HR plays up big time in races and I didn't want that to confuse me. In the build-up I did loads of marathon pace work and I knew I could run MP for about 12 miles at 82%-84% without much drift.

Bit of a shock to the system this morning, trying to ease back into running



16/10/2012 at 13:09

wow Chickadee, you say you don't like running fast but I'd love to swap PBs with you

16/10/2012 at 13:30

chick' - " I know that my HR plays up big time in races "

That's another interesting point.

 When i did my recent Half my HR was sky high on the start line, i mean a good 20 beats above normal and it remained so without dropping to normal levels. My sub LT runs had been around 145bpm @ 7:40m/m but after 100 yards i was at 150bpm @ 8:30m/m.

So i just ran to HR. Surely if i'd gone by pace i'd have crashed. I've seen a few people say don't go by HR in a race and i have to admit i'm struggling to understand the reasoning in that.

Edited: 16/10/2012 at 13:31
16/10/2012 at 15:05

Agent Ginger I sent you a private message.

Why not run at 75% of you HR for a few months.   Keep building the milage up and the pace will come down so then you can HADD properly in a few months,

17/10/2012 at 09:47

Roy, That long run HR is very impressive. Appears you are an aerobic monster. What level of the Hadd stuff are you at?

BD2000, the improvement will come, albeit a little less dramatic than if you were doing 5 or 6 runs per week. The fact that you are 60mins+ now does represent good progress. Hopefully if you can get the extra session in, and get a long run up towards 2hrs, the improvements will come thick and faster.

Chickadee, Huge congrats on the marathon, and knocking nearly 10mins off too!!!! Another success story, sticking to the plan and getting the results you deserve. Recover well......

Spen71, Good to hear from you. Well done on the improvements. Just think what will happen if you improve your consistency!?!

VTrunner. Good steady progress. Stay sensible and reap the rewards.

mace, Careful with the achilles. Maybe a bit of tlc required, massage and stretching. Some calf strengthening too. Good luck with the ramping up.

AgentGinger (and all), Been thinking about this running slowly and losing form. I have come to the conclusion that a bit more concentration is required. It is so easy to lose focus when running "slowly" and lose posture and control, and therefore form. A way I suggest to help keep the concentration and form is something we should be doing anyway in training and a little reminder won't go amiss. I think we may slouch especially when not concentrating on running fast, so a good method of improving form is to engage the muscles. Appropriate ones being the abs and glutes. This in turn should get you to run taller and automatically improve your form. You may also be surprised to find that this type of running takes less effort (lower hr) too.  

Edited: 17/10/2012 at 09:48
17/10/2012 at 10:19
Some interesting reading going on here.
The max hr thing is a bit of a funny one for me at the moment. On saturday I tried to get a max hr at the end of a 5k so started slowish at around 7:45 then incresed the pace progressively till 2.5miles where I just went flat out an blew up with .1 to go and this got me 195bpm max.

I'm now not sure what to do to be honest because 70% of 195 is 136.
But i'd been using the 213 that I had when cycling about 5yrs ago. Also I had not done 70% of this because it felt a bit quick to be under the name 'easy' so I had been using 60% which which is really slow. Sometimes its been 9:00+min a mile so I have just kept the pace no slower than 9min/mile and put up with the br going higher. Hmmm, I want to keep at hadd but this has thrown me a bit.
17/10/2012 at 10:34

Andy, for the purposes of Hadd I would use 200. Your 70% pace should be about 5k pace + 3mins. Does this work out ?

17/10/2012 at 14:50

without doing a lactate biopsy (or whatever the clinical test is called) how does one best estimate their lactate threshold. I'm assuming that the point of this type of training is that you're running just below the lactate threshold, which will mean diff actual HRs and different % of maxHR for different runners; it won't be 70% for everyone. So, in the absense of a lab test, my guess is that running at a comfortable pace is equivalent to running aerobically, is that fair to say?

This itself probably requires a bit of personal experimentation, but if you can run "to effort" and find a pace that you could maintain indefinitely (or atleast for the weekend long runs) then this should suffice, right?

17/10/2012 at 15:22

AgentGinger, The lactate threshold generally equates to between 80% and 90% HRmax. Running below this arbitrary point (which as you say can differ per individual) is deemed aerobic. Above that level is anaerobic exercise. It is the point at which lactate accumulates freely into the blood.

The Hadd stuff is designed to raise this threshold, and therefore raise the pace at which you can run without flooding the muscles with lactic acid.

 

17/10/2012 at 15:24

Sorry, to answer your last paragraph question - the threshold pace is sometimes described as the best pace at which you can run 10miles, or for 60mins.

Edited: 17/10/2012 at 15:35
17/10/2012 at 16:22
Brian
Cheers for that, 200 could well be the answer for now. The longer I go on though the more I'm tempted to do a max test on the athletics track. 200bpm would mean 70%=140bpm. the other week 145bpm/70% of 213 gave 7:38pace so I'll try 140 this afternoon. An let you know what it gives.

Also 5k pace is 5:16 so by chance last night the club run of 9.52miles tuned out to have an average HR of 144bpm for 8:18pace though the legs were sore because of 12x400m in 75secs in the morning.

So bearing in mind if a proper max test(not a park run I might of got to 200 rather than 195bpm. So your comment on 5k pace +3mins could well be the answer.

Sorry for going round the houses with the reply but I really really want to make tbis work. Thanks for taking the time to reply to my previous comment.
17/10/2012 at 16:40

Cheers Brian.   My excuse for my erratic milage is that i always seemed to be recoverying,   I did 10 marathons and 2 ultras in a year!!!!  Was a personal challenge I set myself.

Back to just running now to see if I can beat my PBs of 1:41 for hm and 3:51 for full marathon.

17/10/2012 at 17:44

presumably, muscle biopsy aside, I will know if i hit the lactate threshold because my legs will start to hurt, right? So long as I keep my runs to a comfortable pace (which will by definition be below the lactate/anaerobic* threshold) then i'll be training aerobically and therefore improving aerobically, which is the basis of the HADD training as far as I can understand it.

* i use the terms lactate threshold and anaerobic threshold interchangably, which may be incorrect, but I think they amount to the same thing.

A specific pace or specific HR range is a helpful tool to ensure you remain below this anaerobic threshold, assuming your goal is to train and develop aerobically, but even in the absense of these tools to guide me I could use perceived effort as a yardstick, is that right?

18/10/2012 at 08:29
Lactate threshold and anaerobic threshold are indeed the same. And you are also correct about perceived effort. Good luck with the new regimen.
18/10/2012 at 11:05

Eindhoven was a bit of a concrete jungle but slightly better than expected. The races were very well organised, and included a 2.5k fun run and a 5k city run. The hotel (pullman cocagne) was good, infact probably the best hotel we have stayed in on a run trip. And it was on the course. So we watched the 5k run as we ate brekkie on Sunday morning. Marathon kicked off at 10 and the half at 1.30. Weather had been dark and rainy the day before but race day was perfect albeit a little breezy.

Got as close to the front of the pen as I could without pushing by anybody. Had a chat with a Valley Strider runner which helped to pass the time. It turned out he had a pb of 79.xx and was looking for a time similar to mine (sub80). The front pen had hardly anybody in, and I could see someone I knew running up and down the length of the pen! Anyway, the gun went and we were on our way. Had a bit of ducking and diving to do, but quickly got into my stride and the lap pace fell steadily to about 6:11 prior to taking a split.  

2k - 7:40  

I had worked out that I needed to do about 3:47 per k, and therefore I was 6s down at this point. Out into the country and a right turn took us onto a very straight stretch of tree-lined road. Got a bit excited putting the boot down and got the 6s back and more.  

4k - 15:04 (2k - 7:24)  

Felt ok and was swapping the lead with the lad from Valley. Missed the 6k marker, but felt ok and felt like I was hitting the right pace.  

7k - 26:33 (3k - 11:29)  

So turned out I was 8s slow for that section, but overall felt satisfied at my overall pace. Started to concentrate and work a little harder at this point, and set my mind on getting to 10k on target.  

8k - 30:18 (1k - 3:45)  

Pressed the button after a k having missed the 6k marker, and happy enough to see a 6m/m section. Tried to do a little maths at this point, but failed miserably. If I'd have worked it out, it would've realised that I was almost bang on 6:06 pace, just 2s outside target. 10k marker and a big landmark for me, I was working hard now and the legs were beginning to feel it.  

10k - 37:56 (2k - 7:38)  

In the plan I had formulated prior to the race, I wanted to get to 10k 38 or under, so I was happy. I wasn't too happy about the way I felt though.  

12k - 45:36 (2k - 7:40)  

Slipped back a little here, and I was beginning to wish the markers away. 12k - 15k became a bit of a blurr. And the target slipped a little further. I do remember running slightly downhill, and being thankful and maybe relaxing a little. I obviously relaxed a little too much.  

15k - 57:15 (3k - 11:39)

I couldn't see the Valley guy now, and couldn't remember whether he was infront or behind. 6k to go. Everything was tired now and not just my legs. Got to hold it together.  

16k - 61:05 (1k - 3:50)  

Working very hard now and trying hard to concentrate. The countryside, and the tree-lined roads were now behind, as I hit the outskirts of Eindhoven. The 3:50 k felt too hard, and I contemplated whether I could speed back up to 6m/miles. I knew I needed to - and I put the boot down.  

17k - 64:56 (1k - 3:51)  

What happened there! I kicked myself virtually and almost muttered out loud - kitchen sink! 4k to go and I was on another planet. Back into the City, and passed the railway station, (underpass) looping back round to pass our hotel. I saw our hotel and realised there was less than 2k to go. Completely missed the 18 and 19k markers. The town centre was twisty-turny but the atmosphere was brilliant. The course was really narrow ant the barriers and crowd made it almost feel like single file. The noise kept me going over the last km and I finished completely on

18/10/2012 at 11:16

bloody hell Brian, is that a deliberate cliffhanger, or did you collapse onto your keyboard? what gives? We want to know the end of the story!!

18/10/2012 at 11:22

I finished completely on..........

What??? Come on Brian stop teasing us

18/10/2012 at 11:32

Bugger! How did that happen? Sorry about that folks.

I think I ran out of space!!!!!!!

"empty."

Finish - 80:50 (4k - 15:54)

Very disappointed after 12 weeks of brilliant training that couldn't have given any more to be honest. Devastated to miss the sub80, but also realised that I hadn't beaten my pb either (80:48). Mood got a little better when official time was given as 80:45 (chip), and a pb by 3s!!! 44th overall (out of nearly 7,000) and 3rd V50 (out of 660). A few beers later it didn't seem too bad at all.....

Back to the drawing board for Brass Monkey.

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