HADD training plan

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03/11/2011 at 13:49
LS21 ... What was your mara time/pace when running at 157bpm avHR? You said you were aiming for 2:45 but backed off.
Edited: 03/11/2011 at 13:51
03/11/2011 at 14:12

I ended up with 2'49'09 mate. So I went from 6'17 avg for the first 8 miles out to 6'27ish as a total.

2'45 was always a little pie in the sky really. But I did East Hull 20 a few weeks prior - 5 miles at 7'20ish, and then I tried 15 at 6'15 pace. Managed it ok but I was full on racing for the last 3 really, in order to maintain that pace. But I kind of hoped (rather than expected) that come Mara day after a good taper etc I'd be able to do it. I tried, but realised it wasn't to be - hence the early decision to slow down.

03/11/2011 at 14:25

Great time nevertheless! I could just about envisage hitting that pace for a HM one day.

So, if my HM pace matches your M pace, at roughly the same HRs and %maxHRs, how would that show up on the Hadd test? We can run roughly the same pace at the same HR, only you can last twice as long. In the test, I guess I'd get more fatigued in the earlier stages and so my pace for the final stages would drop off. Only one way to find out ... but first I need to heal ... roll on December.

03/11/2011 at 14:31
I've been rumbled....
03/11/2011 at 14:41

Err, not 100% sure!

But if my understanding of the document/test process is right, the 4th rep HR (i.e. - 155bpm for me/us) = Mara pace. I certainly think that's right for Joe too.

For Joe his Mara HR is 175bpm, which equates to 170bpm for the test (allowing for a bit of drift). The idea (I think) is for Joe to train to get to 5'32 pace for the 170HR Rep during his test, as 5'32 = a sub-2'25 Mara which is his goal. He hits this on his 4th lot of testing, which is after 14 weeks of training.

Hence why I've made the assumption that the 4th rep HR is Mara HR/pace - that seems right for me, and pretty much right for Brian too based on his stats pre-Abingdon. So it will be interesting to see how you get on, and what the results are when you do the test yourself.

04/11/2011 at 06:29

Ok guys happy hadding. I'll be off-line now for a week.

04/11/2011 at 08:27

Enjoy Brian.

I look forward to seeing how you get on keeping your HR below 125bpm running up Mount Teide!!

04/11/2011 at 08:58
Have a great trip Brian
05/11/2011 at 15:55

In for a penny in for a pound

finally got myself a heart rate monitor ,and i have been out and done some tests.My resting heart rate is 50bpm and my max heart rate is 180bpm. 

I'm gonna start the long process of getting myself aerobic fit using the hadds approach. I am after some training advice please , i am able to train 5 days a week .

At what heart rate should i do my longer runs at , i will be doing 3 of them and 2 at a slightly faster pace but not going into the LTH zone, as i want to build up some aerobic fitness first . I have my eye on the leicester HM next october so time is on my side to prepare, but i would like to throw in a couple of 10K's but that wouldnt be till june.

any advice and tips would be great

05/11/2011 at 16:18

Hi there CW,

Have you checked out this document (below)?

www.electricblues.com/html/[b]Hadd[/b].doc

For starters I would try sessions like those on p19...just pro rata the HR shown in the first table by a factor of your MHR divided by Joe's MHR.  I think Joe is 193...its in there somewhere.  Don't worry about resting heart rate for the time being.  Also adjust the durations to fit your current capability.

Then you are good to make a start.

Its up to you when you do your first 2400 repeat mini test...I chose to do mine early so I'd (hopefully) I'd see a nice improvement next time around.

Good luck

05/11/2011 at 17:00
Hi everyone,

newbie alert here

(waves at Dr. Dan - seen you on the 2011 marathon thread)

This is the first time ever that I am trying some proper base building. Like most of you on here I am guilty of being hung up on pace and get really frustrated and angry if certain numbers don't show on the screen. Not the smartest way to train but it's the way I've been training for the 4 years that I've been running...

I did my Hadd test today. My max. HR is 182 (did a test at some point and confirmed it in two races over the summer so I guess it's right). It was very interesting to see that the 5 paces (130, 140, 150, 160 and 170) seem to be easy, steady, MP, HMP and 10k pace for me. Since I haven't done any speedwork for a more than a month now (ran a marathon on Oct. 2) I really struggled with the last one. Boy, that HURT!

I'm pretty slow compared to most of you guys here but I hope to break 3:30 in the marathon one day. PB so far is 3:38...  next marathon is planned at the end of April. What I would like to understand better is how to structure the training weeks. There isn't a proper schedule anywhere, is there? So you basically do a bunch of easy runs (135 bpm for me) plus 2 faster ones (145-150), right? How long should those faster ones be at the beginning? OK, at some point you are supposed to be able to do this for 10 miles with no drop in pace and no increase in HR but what sort of distance makes sense for the first weeks? I was thinking about 5-6 miles initially. Does that make sense? Oh, and I don't think I want to run 7 days a week. I need at least one rest day

Grateful for any advice!
06/11/2011 at 09:48

just been for an easy session and averaged 140 bpm , i couldnt of gone any slower as i would have been walking it was easy and it lasted an hour , is this right...........

If i go up another 10bpm for a slightly quicker run , will i still be in the aerobic zone?, as the easy pace was so slow , I know patience is the game , But does this go to prove how unfit i actually am

06/11/2011 at 10:24

Hi Guys, New to this thread.... Glossed over the Hadd report on Friday night, and I was fairly interested in his opinion on how times stack up to distance's....

Just a quick brief about myself, back to running after a long layoff (13years, am currently 51), this year so far I've got my 5k time down to 19.59 from 24.06 (on different courses), and 10k from 45.22 to 44.00.... On Hadd's time scale, my 10k time shoulld be 41.40 for a 19.59 5k time.....

So yesterday I decided to bin the parkrun, and adopt Hadd's plan to work on my base's, always felt I wasn't doing enough and what I was doing was to fast, so here it goes..... Last night I attempted the 5 x 2400 session, but don't live anywhere near a track, so using a circuit of the local trading estate (2.3k).... Set my garmin up wrong and ended up running the hardest session ever, but it was brillent, perfect conditions, fireworks constantly going off and the smell of bonfires loved it.......

So guys looking forward to gleaning any info from you, and roll on the winter........

07/11/2011 at 10:43

Hi to new Hadders!

In the (temporary) absence of JB, Brian and others I'll have a go at being both chummy and helpful.

Re. structure of training weeks - have a look at the posts in this thread...around page 3 I think I was asking similar questions to you guys (shape of the week including rest days) and getting some good help from some of the more experienced posters.  Also look at the Hadd word document that I linked earlier for cw.  Brian recommended that I stick to zones 1 and 2 for the first 6 weeks and that is what I am trying to do.

I've not seen a comprehensive Hadd "do this length of run at this intensity at this time of the day" prescription.  Knowledge of some basics should enable you to piece together a programme that fits you.  These basics include your maximum heart rate, roughly how many easy miles (or minutes) you can currently run and other bits and bobs from the word document (inc the typical weekly schedules in p19 I think).

Good luck

Edited: 07/11/2011 at 10:46
07/11/2011 at 10:59

Great to see some newbies to the thread, the more the merrier.

Chickadee, you have decided that your baseline running will be 75% of MHR (some say 70% but I think 75% is more realistic and indeed comfortable). Therefore in your first 6 weeks (or 5 if you wish) you do all your running at 136 or lower (average for the run), but not running at 150 for 80% of the time and then walking the last 20% to get a 136 AHR).

Phase 2 is when you look to put a couple of sessions, preferably longer runs, in at the next step up which will be 145-150 AHR but keeping the rest of the runs at 136AHR .

When I did my HADD test (week 1 of phase1) then I could not get to 150 and my AHR for that 2400m was 137 with a max of about 145. 

As far as what to do in phase 1 then it really depends on what you are after. I wanted to use the easy running as a means of building up the base mileage and remember HADD is a foundation approach, not race specific speed work.  I have done some double days, got my long run in but only ran between 5-6 days ever week. My totals for the 12 week period finishing yesterday which incorporated normal training and HADD Phase 1 is as follows

Normal 6 weeks Total 132 Average 22 longest run of 8  milestwice in that period

Hadd Ph 1            Total 223 Average 37  longest run13.5 miles (yesterday) and many over 8 miles.

Bluenose, looking for to seeing your Hadd test results. I am now starting phase 2 and will be doing a test tomorrow or Wednesday. I don't particularly anticipate any earth shattering news but as you can see from the figures above, I am pleased that my foundation work has improved and that is solely down to me doing HADD otherwise I would not have had the motivation and I would have been too tired to do some of the runs I have done if done at my normal pace.  

CW, I reckon you should be doing base running at more like 135 than 140 average but that can be adjusted. As you get into  it it does become easier to keep the same pace but at a lower HR

07/11/2011 at 11:11
Johnny bike : I would like to run at hr 135bpm , but I would be walking at that pace , will it get easier at 135 bpm , as I am gonna do this for 6 weeks then hopefully get to the track and do the 2400m test . Then I will up the mileage for 3 months after Xmas , doing the 2400m test at 6 week intervals weather permitting .
07/11/2011 at 11:21

CW, yes it does become easier, almost natural. Just persevere.

My 13 mile run yesterday was at 8:54 average which now seem the norm for me. It was at 129 AHR rather than 125 planned but a few long inclines on the return make it quite hard to keep AHR down even if running at 10:30 pace.

I do wonder if I will ever be able to go quicker again

PS I have done a lot of the 'junk' miles (4-6 mile runs) on the treadmill as I find it easier to maintain a stable HR  that way.

07/11/2011 at 11:36

One thing to remember is that Hadd was used to training pretty fast runners ... he said on the lets run forum ... "Probably the slowest runner I advise is a female who runs 22:00/5k, 45:00/10k and 3:30 marathon." Most of his runners were much faster.

He also says ... "No more 11- or 10-min miles. I wouldn't inflict those on my worst enemy. "

 For people running their easy sub-70% runs at these very slow paces, he has different advice ...

"Calculate your 5k PB pace per mile and add 3 mins. Go for a run at this pace and check your HR. If it is higher than I have advised for someone with your HRmax, then use this pace as your easy run pace. ... When you find that the pace at this low easy HR improves by 20secs/mile, drop down your easy HR by 5bpm and continue. Over time you are trying to run at a reasonable pace at the HR I advised initially for you."

chickadeee wrote (see)
(waves at Dr. Dan - seen you on the 2011 marathon thread)

Hello Chick! *waves*

Edited: 07/11/2011 at 11:37
07/11/2011 at 11:53

The phrase reasonable pace is the  question here. Dr D you make a good point re  that HADD did cater for quicker runners in his example of Joe (and indeed himself) . My last 5K parkrun was 7:06 pace so my very slow pace on hills of ~10 min miles is still acceptable.

Chickadee it would be useful to see the results of your test as if you are looking at a 3:30 FM in the future then your times should be that far away from mile and possibly Dr Ds as well. HR might be different - I am 54 with a MHR of 170.

I also have a view that unless you are very fit then your legs are not strong enough to force out a MHR. On a hill test I would struggle to get above 160 as my legs would tire and yet when I was doing a lot of indoor rowing I could get to 164 in a 500m sprint and rowing is always about 5bpm lower than running in the same way that cycling is. 

07/11/2011 at 12:26
Cheers for the advice , I will post how I am getting on with the training
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