Morning. Newbie to thread alert. I've spent a couple of days back reading the first 30 pages and then random pages after that to get an idea of the thread. I have also read the original Hadd PDF doc as recommended by Philpub on page 1 of this thread.
A brief background: I haven't run a marathon this year as I was injured before VLM due to reintroducing cycling without considering it's impact on running. A pity as 4 days before the injury I did manage a decent pb HM or 81.xx mins. After a summer focusing on regaining fitness quickly I traded in my aerobic base for speed work, which soon got me a 5k pb and back within seconds of my 10k pb, but after a couple of months became mentally stale and didn't have the wisdom to back off, resulting in a couple of months of sporadic running.
With VLM a target (P&D starts mid Dec) 2 weeks ago I managed to get some motivation back and have been focusing on running 45min - 2hrs all between 70-75%max (146bpm) as per Hadd. However, from reading this, I am now wondering if I have been miscalculating my HRmax all these years.
When a racing cyclist I used to do max tests, which would come up in the mid 190s. Although I have aged 10 years since (now almost a vet) I have used the same figure - thinking that running HR is generally 10 bpm higher than cycling HR - so will componsate the 10bpm drop due to age.
Although I know of the 5x hill reps and 2x800m MaxHR tests, I have always thought it best to go by the HRs I have in measured repeatedly in races:
My Ave HR for 5k = 175, 10k = 173, HM = 171, Marathon = 161.
Question: With this data - am I over estimating my Max HR at 195bpm? If so, 75% shouldn't be 146bpm and I should be running much slower (a common issue for Hadd newbies I understand).
Sorry about long winded introduction. Advice gratefully received.
I know what you mean Andy about WHR! It is just when i read on net i see on this conflicting advice.
Thanks Brian. I was hoping for higher, but I can see how you estimate that.
I think the only way is to face my demons and do that test. Gulp.
I looked over stats for this past season and my max HR was when relatively unfit - my first race back after injury and I reached 182bpm. So I think I'll work with 185bpm for now.
So I went out this morning with adjusted HR zones - 126bpm = 70% of max and really found it difficult mentally to run so slow. 10m/m ave speed. I know people say this is hard, but it feels painfully slow mentally, a bit boring and certainly not taxing at all physically. Do I really need to do this for 6 solid weeks?
Andy and MP32 - when using 5k + 3mins - is that your pb 5k +3mins (mine would work out at 8.45m/m), or your current estimated 5k time +3mins (9.15m/m for me)?
Keir, I'm not too keen on the idea of 5k + 3mins. I know people tend to use it in desperation. I am a great believer in 70% runs in the initial phase. It all depends on how keen you are, and how patient. But to get all the toothpaste out, you really do need to start squeezing right at the bottom. If you stay below 75% initially, I'm sure that within a couple of weeks your 70% pace will be closer to 9m/m.
If you don't mind me asking, what are your current pbs?
More stats - week 8 on HADD. This is my run for yesterday - I still get a tiny bit emabarrased when I look at the pace compared to everyone else, but hey - it is what it is.
1m - 11:07 - 129 (70%)
2m - 10:58 - 135 (74%)
3m - 11:28 - 133 (73%); slower pace for incline
4m - 11:04 - 133 (73%)
5m - 11:32 - 133 (73%); slower pace for incline
6m - 11:16 - 132 (72%)
7m - 11:22 - 132 (72%)
Encouragingly I wanted to go further yesterday - felt like I could have done more miles at this pace. Also my HR doesn't seem to have much drift later on in the run for roughly the same pace. Still want another few weeks at this level with some increased mileage (currently at 24 miles per week)
Taken over the 8 weeks so far these are my average weekly stats.
week - miles - pace - Average HR (%max)wk1 -17.5m - 11:23 - 71% AvHRwk2 - 15.5m - 11:44 - 70% AvHRwk3 - 19.1m - 11:30 - 71% AvHRwk4 - 20.3m - 11:47 - 71% AvHRwk5 - 21.1m - 11:29 - 72% AvHRwk6 - 21.9m - 11:33 - 72% AvHRwk7 - 19.2m - 11:13 - 73% AvHRwk8 - 24.5m - 11:18 - 72% AvHRAlthough there 'appears' to be no change there definitely IS!
When I look back at some of my stats mid run for earlier runs there were some +12min miles in there!! This was when I was having to slow down dramatically to keep the HR down - NOW that does not happen at all, my pace and HR are much more stable - still slow but that will improve.
That sounds like a good idea Andy. I find I do actually start quite slowly automatically. I don't realise I do until I run with someone else, when I really struggle for the first couple of miles. Certainly HR takes a little while to stablise and make the date accurate.
Thanks for posting the positive comments Andy and BD. It really helps to get some assurance that this plan works. I feel as if I am risking quite a bit by abandoning reasonably paced runs and going ultra slow on everything for the next couple of months.
You are right Brian. It is the discipline and patience which is going to be my challenge. I do understand the logic underpinning this, I just need more reassurances that it is what I need. I am starting to realise that this is a pretty long term approach and rather than base building for VLM training, I still might not be fully 'Hadd fit' and ready for the race in April.
My PBs are:
5k = 17.59 (Ashford 2012)5m = 30.31 (Mid Kent 2012)10k = 37.19 (Rye 2011)10m = 63.32 (Folkestone 2011)13.1 = 81.39 (Lydd 2012)26.2 = 2.54.24 (Abingdon 2011)
I have a good endurance background from years of cycle racing. Although I haven't ridden properly for several years, I certainly think that this background has helped me cope aerobically and mentally over the longer distances. I love going out for long steady runs in the hills, it is just family commitments (3 under the age of 6) which restrict this (and rightly so!). I guess I need to man up and get in some 5am starts. I am really appreciating your advce on this. I am also finding lots of tips reading through the original Hadd thread.
Nice work BD2000 ... if you can increase your over all mileage (gradually) you will see big improvements.
Andy - I don't worry too much on my easy runs since HR seems to take care of itself... I just run easy and whatever pace comes out, I take. On my subLT runs, I run the first 2 miles by pace and then stick to the HR limit after that. If I run to HR straight away, then I end up running too fast and pay for it later with HR drift in the last couple of miles.
Keir - if you stick to running at around 9:30/m initially, I bet you'll soon find you can cope with 70%. Your current 5K pace is 15 s/m faster than mine but my 70% pace more like 9/m.
I did the Harewood 10M trail race yesterday - muddy, hilly, muddy, winding, muddy, windy and muddy. The last mile was virtually all up hill as well which was a bit cruel after all that hard work. 75:39 at about 87% maxHR, 80th out of 363. A good tough endurance workout ... which is why I entered it in the first place. Day off today to recover!
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