Brian - thanks for looking at these - this is after 11 wks base phase (1 wk off with cold). Course is out and back with a couple of small inclines. Average pace is consistently 20 secs better than first few weeks. I was hoping you wouldn't ask for splits as my pace is really slow and feels a bit embarrasing!! Best HM av pace is 9:40 (June this year - was not HADDing then).
Mile AvMaxHR Spilt1 71% 10:352 74% 10:493 74% 11:104 73% 11:175 73% 11:196 74% 11:127 74% 11:208 74% 11:249 74% 11:27
Brain, thanks very much for the feedback it is much appreciated.
I see HADD as a having a long term benefit and so not expecting dramtic results overnight. I am already enjoying going out and running to hr and time, rather than miles and pace, and like the fact that I feel fresh for every run.
I think i am going to follow your plan and maybe see how I go with the variation of 2 runs at 80%. I might also not do speedwork and jsut fully HADD all the way. Will keep you upto date on weekly plan and progress for your feedback if that is ok.
The good news is that Im going to be running again tomorrow!!!!!!!!!11
hope you dont mind me sticking my nose in.
The speed you run is not important at this stage, what is, is the fade off that you are getting, almost a min a mile over the distance.
Thats what I would work at for the next few weeks/ months,just think consistency
once the pace/ HR is stable then think about moving HR up, but only then.
P.S. all advice can be totally ignored
Brian, I did 6 20 mile plus long runs, a couple of these were progressive runs (10 miles slow and 10 miles at marathon pace). Did plenty of 15mile plus long runs. Also did runs of up to 10 miles during the week. I also did tempo/speedwork as runners world schedule, which in hindsight I think I would have been better doing long runs during the week.
Planning to initially do 2hr long run building up to 2hrs 30 mins after 4/6 weeks, a start with a long run of 90 minutes plus during week.
Hi JB, which calculator do you use?
preston, These are conversions based on McMillan. The times in brackets are the equivalent marathon times:
5km - 22 mins (3:34)
10km - 46:20 mins (3:37)
10 miles - 1hr 19 30 secs (3:43)
1/2 marathon - 1hr 44:30 (3:39)
So even though your not far out, you can expect a little more out of your marathon, well trained.
Well said Roy.
BD2000, none of us are going to win a race. We are all mid pack runners. Generally when we race, we race against the clock. We are on here sharing experiences and knowledge because in our own way we are all competitive. We all want to better ourselves as runners, and run the fastest we can and beat our personal bests.
The way I see it (I'm no expert and this is just my opinion) is we all have a unique physiology, which determines our potential. Call it natural ability if you like. And we are all trying to achieve our potential from what nature gave us.
So the numbers in themselves don't mean a great deal. As Roy says we are all aiming to improve those numbers as best we can. That is the importance of the numbers, they are a benchmark only.
A few of the lhe limiting factors are in no particular order:
As well as luck.
So we need to maximise these factors to get the best results possible.
Don't ever be embarrassed about your numbers. Infact be proud of them. Try not to use the dreaded j-word. You are a runner, which separates you from the sedentary world.
Roy S - no problem at all, any discussion is helpful. I agree I 'feel' as though I need more base work - that's not the problem, I'm not in a hurry to move up to 80%. My own timetable is the Silverstone Half in March and yes I would like to introduce some 80% work before then but I'm going to let my HADD training dictate all that.
Looking at my splits I know there is still plenty to do - I tend to ignore the first mile (shorter run) or two (longer run) regarding pace until my running has settled into a rythm. The difference in pace between mile 3 split and mile 9 split was 17secs and inbetween was a stable HR. My question really was about wether this is an 'acceptable' level of what is effectively cardiac drift.
I can only go by how I feel and at the moment I know I could not increase my intensity of workout as you are right I need more time in the base phase. Interesting times, as I've done 11 weeks and really are feeling the benefits - my HR at the start was like a roller coaster - now I can keep it stable throughout my runs - with some drop in pace over the longer run.
Last nights 6 mile session saw my pace actually improve during the run and the HR stayed steady at 71%-72% throughout. I know its working so its now down to adding the mileage to make sure that I can transfer that same improvement to my 10mile+ runs.
I wrote this before I read your last entry.
BD2000, I've given the drift question quite a lot of thought. And I don't really want to put a figure on it, either pace, HR or percentage of. My suggestion (and others may have a better idea) is that you should cut the drift to your personal minimum. By this I mean, using the same run and the same HR as a benchmark run, record the figures once (or twice I suppose) per week, on a 70-75% run, and when the drift plateaus, you are then ready to move to the next stage. I suppose drift in this case would mean pace difference between the 3rd and the last mile, and plateauing would be recording the same or very similar drift 3 or 4 times in a row. Hope this helps.
Brian/JB, thanks for the feedback.
The intial aim when I started training was to go sub 3.45. This was based on time calculated using mcmillan. During training felt comfortable running at 8.15/8.20 pace, so decided to start at that pace and see how it went.
Obvioulsy my stamina and endurance was not enough to sustain this pace for the full distance. I therefore decided to increase my training to 6/7 days a week and thus increase my mileage. I wanted to do this without riksing injury and this has led me to HADD. I see this as hopefully having a long term benefit and am not expecting a vast improvement for my marathon in April.
Brian, I am going to follow the programme you outlined above, If I was not to do the speedwork, am I best incorporating another 70mins@80/83% run. Think I would get more benefit out of the 70 mins@80/83% runs than speedwork.
Preston - Speed work is like adding the cherry on top when it comes to marathon training.
First you need the cake (base miles) and then some icing (slightly faster 80% / marathon pace work). If all goes well, then think about adding the cherry, but don't start adding cherries before you have baked and iced the cake. Any baker would be able to tell you that!
preston, I would see how you feel after weeks 6-10. I would think if you were ok at this point, I would add another 80% run. So weeks 11-15 would include 2x(90mins incl 70mins@80%). Again, if this became comfy then the progression would be to make one of these 83%. I like to progress the 80% to 83% in marathon training because the pace of this run roughly equates to eventual marathon pace. This run is a tough one though, and as such it may be necessary to play the other 90min run by ear, ie. back-off if necessary and just make it easy/steady.
Did you spot my question about long runs?
Brian - just fed my times in to the Mcmillan calculator and these are the times for HM and marathon (my PB for HM is 2:07)
Dist PB HM Mara3km 15:16 2:04 4:215km 27:20 2:06 4:2610km 58:19 2:10 4:3310m 1:35:42 2:07 4:28
As yet I'm not aiming for Marathons but concentrating on Halfs - target time less than 2 hours
Keir, Yes indeedy. The problem arises when you start eating it
BD2000, very sensible target. I would put money on you breaking 2 hours.
My glutes are killing me. Every time I go back in the gym, I say to myself 'ease in gently'. And every time I end up aching for a few days. Fartlek only today after a really good warm-up. Cross country on Sunday.
Keir wrote (see)
Preston - Speed work is like adding the cherry on top when it comes to marathon training. First you need the cake (base miles) and then some icing (slightly faster 80% / marathon pace work). If all goes well, then think about adding the cherry, but don't start adding cherries before you have baked and iced the cake. Any baker would be able to tell you that!
That's such a brilliant way of summing the whole thing up, Keir. Love it!!Sorry, been neglecting this thread a bit last week Huge congrats are in order to Gaz and Dr. Dan. Well done, boys Not much to report from me - I jogged an abysmal (6min PW anyone?) 10k on Sunday but as I was coming down with a cold this wasn't a huge surprise. Feeling better now but sticking to 70% runs only this week until I beat the lurgy. BD: like others said, those numbers mean zilch. If you end up with too much drift just start a bit slower. I usually run the first 2 or 3 miles at 60-65% to warm up and get very little drift that way.Preston: I had pretty good success with a mix of Hadd and P&D for my autumn marathon. I used Hadd for base training and then launched immediately into the 12week P&D version, ran most runs around 70-75% and combined the Hadd LT runs with the medium long P&D ones which meant I got some extra MP work in. There's not much speedwork in P&D so I kept those sessions in .
Brian, I did see your question re: long runs and responded, but I think it got lost in all the other posts.
For the marathon I did 6 20 mile plus long runs, a couple of these were progressive runs (10 miles slow and 10 miles at marathon pace). Also Did plenty of 15mile plus long runs and during the week did runs of up to 10 miles. I also did tempo/speedwork as runners world schedule, which in hindsight I think I would have been better doing longer runs during the week.
Planning to initially do 2hr long run building up to 2hrs 30 mins after a number of weeks, a start with a long run of 90 minutes plus during week.
Thanks Chick. I find most things in life can be compared to eating cake or picking cherries Get better soon.
Finding the conversation about how to convert HADD into a P&D plan really interesting. 90min, 11miles at 8.10m/m between 70-75% in the dark and wet this morning. As always, the hardest bit is getting out of bed.
preston, nothing wrong with the long run stuff then. Personally I've never tackled more than the last 5M of a 20 at MP. 10 and 10 must be tough! Maybe too tough.....
I tend to split the progressive long run into 3, generally 5M easy (normally around 65-70%), 10M moderate (75%ish) and 5M near to target MP (80%+). Another useful variation is 2M hard/easys. These are 5x(2M easy/2M at MP).
If target races are Half Marathons (lets say for the next 2 to 3 years) rather than Marathons is 30 mile a week enough with the longest run at 10 to 12 miles?
Considerations for HM's only is the actual time I'm limited to with training. I note for the big boys and girls running marathons it's 50 miles plus (as per the HADD document) but quite honestly I just can't do that. I recognise that with a lower mileage it will take me longer to squeeze everything out of the tube but I'm prepared for that. Bear in mind each run I do is 70+ mins.
Thanks Chick. I find most things in life can be compared to eating cake or picking cherries Get better soon. Finding the conversation about how to convert HADD into a P&D plan really interesting. 90min, 11miles at 8.10m/m between 70-75% in the dark and wet this morning. As always, the hardest bit is getting out of bed.
Agree, the CNBA fairy has huge persuasion powers at the mo!
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