HADD training plan

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19/11/2012 at 12:16

JB hope the recovery goes ok

Gaz fantastic PB !!

Mace well done on the long run and the mileage

DD great race!

Keir thanks for posting the week's stats - it's good to see what others are up to

Hi Brian, AGF, Spen, Roy...


I had to stop training again - knee still not right.  A few days on the roller awaits...

19/11/2012 at 14:19

Trying to sort out just what is too much cardiac drift / increase in pace on the long slow run. All my training at the moment is in the Base Phase so I'm always in the 70% to 74% zone. So my stats for my longer run are below and although I want to add another 3 or 4 weeks of base phase I'm trying to find out if at this stage the pace vs my HR towards the end of the run is at an acceptable level given a certain allowance for cardiac drift (for instance what is an acceptable drop in pace for the same heart rate allowing for that drift)? All comments welcome.

Mile    Av%max HR  Pace change   Pace vs average
2             74%                  +14s                 -21s
3             74%                  +20s                 -1s
4             73%                  +7s                   +5s
5             73%                  +2s                   +7s
6             74%                  -6s                    +1s
7             74%                  +8s                   +9s
8             74%                  +3s                   +12s
9             74%                  +3s                   +16s

At face value the figures look OK but the last 2 miles saw a drop in pace of 2% versus my average pace for the whole run - so my question is -"is that an 'acceptable' loss in pace for HADD training given that the HR was stable at 74%?

19/11/2012 at 14:24

Gaz - great job on the Conway half (time in my dreams)

Brian - welcome back

Keir - nice stats

Dr Dan - welcome back to HADD (you know it makes sense)

19/11/2012 at 14:43

Hi All,

I was hoping for your advice/assistance.

I have entered the Manchester Marathon (28 April 2013), and have 23 weeks to train for it.

I have so far undertaken 2 weeks HADD training having done the Preston Marathon at the end of October. 

I am wondering how best to train for the marathon. I have considered doing either 6/8 weeks HADD training  followed by a 16/18 week marathon programme or Hadding it all the way to the marathon. 

The P&D 18 week marathon schedule appear to tie in with the HADD philosophy quite well. I am thinking of following the P&D plan, but incorporating 2 70mins@80% workouts into the schedule, possibly in place of the midweek longer runs.

My plan would be to do 4 weeks with runs at 70-75%, then slowly incorporate one 70mins@80% workout and once comfortable doing that slowly incorporate a second 80% run. I would do the longs runs detailed in P&D plan and also the speedwork which appeals to me as it comes in the last 6 weeks of training.

My question is would I be better sticking to the P&D plan and running the majority of my runs in the 70-75% bracket or would I get more from Hadding it to the marathon and doing the 2 x 70 mins@80%

19/11/2012 at 15:12

preston666, Welcome!

Have you done marathons before? How do your pb's compare across distances? My guess is that the answer to your question depends upon your background to some extent.


19/11/2012 at 15:14

BD2000, I find your stats a little hard to read. Can you give the miles and splits instead? Is it a flat, out and back course you use?

19/11/2012 at 15:23

Hi Brian,

I have run 6 marathons over the past 10 years. I recently did Preston which was my first for 5 years. I have run regularly for last 10 years. My cycle is usually train for a marathon, then after marathon carry on running, but without purpose, so lose fitness and have to bascially start from scratch again. This time intention is to maintain and improve fitness.

I averaged about 50/55 miles a week training for Preston, did about 6 months training. Aim was to run at 8.15/8.20 pace. Did this in training in 10 mile runs and found it easy, but during race was ok for first 10 miles then pace slowed to 8.53.

My PB are

5km - 22 mins

10km - 46:20 mins

10 miles - 1hr 19 30 secs

1/2 marathon - 1hr 44:30

Marathon - 3hrs 53

19/11/2012 at 15:49

preston666, You are an experienced marathoner, and obviously have quite a few miles under your belt. I think you are a candidate for Hadd although your conversion is not too bad. I would suggest Hadd all the way. But then you say you like speedwork, so I wouldn't say don't do it because the running should always be enjoyed even at the cost of improvement (hopefully not injury).

My plan for you would be something like:

5 weeks up to 75%

5 weeks 1 x 70mins@80%

5 weeks 1 x 70mins@83%

5 weeks 1 x 70mins@83% + 1 speed session

3 weeks Taper

The variations on this (dependant upon how you cope/feel) would be to build in 2 runs at 80%, prior to moving up to 83%, and the speedwork.

At your level and experience though, I wouldn't bet my house on you gaining better results using Hadd for this one. But I'm fairly sure that in the long term you would benefit from ~ 6months (or more) of Hadd stuff.

Edited: 19/11/2012 at 15:51
19/11/2012 at 15:57

preston, incidentally, how many long runs (and how far) do you normally do, and what format do they take?

19/11/2012 at 16:01

Brian - thanks for looking at these - this is after 11 wks base phase (1 wk off with cold). Course is out and back with a couple of small inclines. Average pace is consistently 20 secs better than first few weeks. I was hoping you wouldn't ask for splits as my pace is really slow and feels a bit embarrasing!! Best HM av pace is 9:40 (June this year - was not HADDing then).

Mile    AvMaxHR     Spilt
1            71%        10:35
2            74%        10:49
3            74%        11:10
4            73%        11:17
5            73%        11:19
6            74%        11:12
7            74%        11:20
8            74%        11:24
9            74%        11:27

Edited: 19/11/2012 at 16:02
19/11/2012 at 16:04

Brain, thanks very much for the feedback it is much appreciated.

I see HADD as a having a long term benefit and so not expecting dramtic results overnight. I am already enjoying going out and running to hr and time, rather than miles and pace, and like the fact that I feel fresh for every run.

I think i am going to follow your plan and maybe see how I go with the variation of 2 runs at 80%. I might also not do speedwork and jsut fully HADD all the way. Will keep you upto date on weekly plan and progress for your feedback if that is ok.


19/11/2012 at 16:59

The good news is that Im going to be running again tomorrow!!!!!!!!!11

19/11/2012 at 18:10


hope you dont mind me sticking my nose in.

The speed you run  is not important at this stage, what is, is the fade off that you are getting, almost a min a mile over the distance.

Thats what I would work at for the next few weeks/ months,just think consistency

once the pace/ HR is stable then think about moving HR up, but only then.

P.S. all advice can be totally ignored

19/11/2012 at 18:14

Brian, I did 6 20 mile plus long runs, a couple of these were progressive runs (10 miles slow and 10 miles at marathon pace). Did plenty of 15mile plus long runs. Also did runs of up to 10 miles during the week. I also did tempo/speedwork as runners world schedule, which in hindsight I think I would have been better doing long runs during the week.

Planning to initially do 2hr long run building up to 2hrs 30 mins after 4/6 weeks, a start with a long run of 90 minutes plus during week.

19/11/2012 at 21:29

Preston - what exactly are you expecting from a FM? - you suggest that 3:38 was your target but to be absolutely blunt I see nothing to base that on. Not one of your times (which are well linked relative to each other ) suggests much less than 4:00 and therefore I suggest that the 3:53 you achieved was actually quite good.

Therefore there are several options - work at the shorter distances to improve them  - and that would be the 10M and the HM in particular - or Hadd with the intention of building up stamina and endurance. Ask yourself why the pace was hard after 10 miles and it dropped to 8:53 pace and that will tell you where you should be putting the effort in.

20/11/2012 at 08:45

Hi JB, which calculator do you use?

preston, These are conversions based on McMillan. The times in brackets are the equivalent marathon times:

5km - 22 mins (3:34)  

10km - 46:20 mins (3:37)  

10 miles - 1hr 19 30 secs (3:43)  

1/2 marathon - 1hr 44:30 (3:39)

So even though your not far out, you can expect a little more out of your marathon, well trained.

20/11/2012 at 08:57

Well said Roy.

BD2000, none of us are going to win a race. We are all mid pack runners. Generally when we race, we race against the clock. We are on here sharing experiences and knowledge because in our own way we are all competitive. We all want to better ourselves as runners, and run the fastest we can and beat our personal bests.

The way I see it (I'm no expert and this is just my opinion) is we all have a unique physiology, which determines our potential. Call it natural ability if you like. And we are all trying to achieve our potential from what nature gave us.

So the numbers in themselves don't mean a great deal. As Roy says we are all aiming to improve those numbers as best we can. That is the importance of the numbers, they are a benchmark only.

A few of the lhe limiting factors are in no particular order:

1. physiology

2. time

3. priority

4. knowledge

As well as luck.

So we need to maximise these factors to get the best results possible.

Don't ever be embarrassed about your numbers. Infact be proud of them. Try not to use the dreaded j-word. You are a runner, which separates you from the sedentary world.


Edited: 20/11/2012 at 08:59
20/11/2012 at 09:05

Roy S - no problem at all, any discussion is helpful. I agree I 'feel' as though I need more base work - that's not the problem, I'm not in a hurry to move up to 80%. My own timetable is the Silverstone Half in March and yes I would like to introduce some 80% work before then but I'm going to let my HADD training dictate all that.

Looking at my splits I know there is still plenty to do - I tend to ignore the first mile (shorter run) or two (longer run) regarding pace until my running has settled into a rythm. The difference in pace between mile 3 split and mile 9 split was 17secs and inbetween was a stable HR. My question really was about wether this is an 'acceptable' level of what is effectively cardiac drift.

I can only go by how I feel and at the moment I know I could not increase my intensity of workout as you are right I need more time in the base phase. Interesting times, as I've done 11 weeks and really are feeling the benefits - my HR at the start was like a roller coaster - now I can keep it stable throughout my runs - with some drop in pace over the longer run.

Last nights 6 mile session saw my pace actually improve during the run and the HR stayed steady at 71%-72% throughout. I know its working so its now down to adding the mileage to make sure that I can transfer that same improvement to my 10mile+ runs.

20/11/2012 at 09:13

I wrote this before I read your last entry.

BD2000, I've given the drift question quite a lot of thought. And I don't really want to put a figure on it, either pace, HR or percentage of. My suggestion (and others may have a better idea) is that you should cut the drift to your personal minimum. By this I mean, using the same run and the same HR as a benchmark run, record the figures once (or twice I suppose) per week, on a 70-75% run, and when the drift plateaus, you are then ready to move to the next stage. I suppose drift in this case would mean pace difference between the 3rd and the last mile, and plateauing would be recording the same or very similar drift 3 or 4 times in a row. Hope this helps.

Edited: 20/11/2012 at 09:23
20/11/2012 at 10:02

Brian/JB, thanks for the feedback.

The intial aim when I started training was to go sub 3.45. This was based on time calculated using mcmillan. During training felt comfortable running at 8.15/8.20 pace, so decided to start at that pace and see how it went.

Obvioulsy my stamina and endurance was not enough to sustain this pace for the full distance. I therefore decided to increase my training to 6/7 days a week and thus increase my mileage. I wanted to do this without riksing injury and this has led me to HADD. I see this as hopefully having a long term benefit and am not expecting a vast improvement for my marathon in April.

Brian, I am going to follow the programme you outlined above, If I was not to do the speedwork, am I best incorporating another 70mins@80/83% run. Think I would get more benefit out of the 70 mins@80/83% runs than speedwork.

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